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Sackboy
Registered: 07/18/2009
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009

Polycarp wrote:

It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding how latency online manifests in games.  Your ping is the amount of time it takes for information to travel between the server (in this case the host's PS3) and you.  This is measured in milliseconds, and for online dedicated servers (PC games mostly) and a player with a broadband connection this time can be quite low, under 10 ms.  For P2P games (anything without dedicated servers) these pings are usually higher, rumored and estimated to be in the 100-150 range.  This time is a delay due to wiring and routers and the whole mechanism of the internet working, and is present to some extent in every online game. 

 

Think about a scenario here.  You are in a game against another player with a dedicated server set up.  You walk around the corner and see him, and he sees you.  You both pull the trigger.  What happens?  Your console sends the information that you shot to the server, taking a time of ~100ms (a tenth of a second) to reach it.  The server records this as you shooting.  The other player does the same, and lets say his ping is only 50 ms, so his information (shot) arrives to the server first.  The server now has some choices.  Technically, his shot arrived first, and it is not easy to tell if this is because he pulled the trigger first or because he has a lower ping than you.  One option is to simply immediately declare you dead.  The other option is to say that if shots arrive within a few seconds of eachother, to declare both players as hit. 

 

How does this all appear on your screen?

You saw the enemy and immedietely pulled the trigger, then ducked behind cover.  Since it takes 50 ms for the shot from the other guy to get to the server, and then 100 ms for that to get to your console, there is a delay of 150 ms between the other guy shooting you and your console knowing that you have actually been shot.  Since you cannot have the console wait 150 ms between each action you perform to check if you are dead, the game continues allowing you to play for a fraction of a second, oblivious to your demise.  After you are in cover, the server says "you died 150 ms ago, a few feet away" and drops you to the ground, so you complain and are angry.

 

You can tell where games insert the break between your console and the server by examining the speed of actions.  Take older PC games like the original COD (i think, maybe it was original battlefield, i can't remember).  In that game if you walked up to a wall, and point blank shot it, you would see the gun firing animation and then a delay before the bullet hit the wall.  That is your ping.  This can be pretty frustrating for players with slower connections as you can imagine, so now game developers tend to insert the delay later- between the impact of the bullet and the result of that impact (i.e. death of an enemy).  Take killzone 2 or COD4 (on console and PC).  If you use a shotgun and point blank shoot a guy in the head your console shows blood or whatever coming out of the guys head since it knows you have hit him, but it has to hear back from the server before it shows the death animation of the character.  That is why when you shotgun someone you pull the trigger, hear a bang, see the shot hit, the guy takes a few more steps (this is the lag) and THEN dies.  Sometimes, as in KZ2, they actually return the corpse to the position it was at when it died.  

 

I tried my best to explain this, I hope it isn't too confusing.

 

If you understood all of that, then you will understand why PC gamers are so angry at Infinity Ward for releasing MW2 without any dedicated servers.  When a player hosts a game, they are the server, and they have a 0 ms ping.  If they shoot, there is no delay, and that is a huge huge advantage.  At least with dedicated servers everybody has a ping and the playing field is more even.

Message Edited by Polycarp on 12-01-2009 05:57 PM

So does MW2 have lag compensation that's as bad as Uncharted 2? Because I swear I never TRADE kills in MW2 or die a few seconds AFTER I've been shot at
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Sackboy
Registered: 07/18/2009
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009

polycarp you make this long well thought out reply but missed the most important things...

 

 MW2 lag compensation is not noticable even half as much as U2. 

MW2 people rarely (if ever) TRADE kills like they do in U2.

MW2 you don't die a few seconds AFTER being shot at. 

 

Even if everything you said is true... at the end of the day, lag compensation works in MW2 and is barely noticed, but it doesnt work nearly aswell in U2. BS lag compensation moments happen all the time in U2 and is very noticable and annoying to players. Either way, something should be done about it in U2.

Message Edited by GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS on 12-01-2009 09:17 PM
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I Only Post Everything
Registered: 12/30/2008
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009

GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS wrote:

Lag compensation.

 

You know those times when you are behind cover and still for some reason get killed.... thats lag compensation. 

 

Those times you run around a building and seemingly get hit from an impossible angle... thats lag compensation. 

 

This is the most endlessly frustrating thing in the game (along with grenades being thrown in .0001 seconds, and being melee'd from 10 yards away). It's little stuff like this that turned off alot of casual players because stuff like this is obvious BS and gets players upset. 

 

 

 

Naughty Dog...Dear Naughty Dog. We love you. But please fix this crap for the next game you make. 


 

I'm totally with you man.  I thought it was just me or the regular way the game runs, but I guess not.  This crap needs to be fixed.
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Sackboy
Registered: 10/04/2009
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009


 In comparing UC2 with MW2, basically UC2 trusts client hit detection more than in MW2. In UC2, you will trade kills (because both players killed each other on their own screen) and you may get killed a little after being shot. But, in MW2, I frequently have moments where I put a ton of bullets into a guy who kills me only to see on the killcam that I never fired my gun. I am willing to live kill trades and some lag kills in order to have the shots that connect on my screen count.
 Message Edited by SurrealPanic on 12-02-2009 12:34 AM

That has happend to me numerous times on MW2 and it always seems like its that last kill I need to get a killstreak, makes me want to slam my controller sometimes.

Message Edited by Quezz- on 12-02-2009 04:09 AM
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First Son
Registered: 06/09/2009
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009

GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS wrote:

polycarp you make this long well thought out reply but missed the most important things...

 

 MW2 lag compensation is not noticable even half as much as U2. 

MW2 people rarely (if ever) TRADE kills like they do in U2.

MW2 you don't die a few seconds AFTER being shot at. 

 

Even if everything you said is true... at the end of the day, lag compensation works in MW2 and is barely noticed, but it doesnt work nearly aswell in U2. BS lag compensation moments happen all the time in U2 and is very noticable and annoying to players. Either way, something should be done about it in U2.

Message Edited by GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS on 12-01-2009 09:17 PM

 
In comparing UC2 with MW2, basically UC2 trusts client hit detection more than in MW2. In UC2, you will trade kills (because both players killed each other on their own screen) and you may get killed a little after being shot. But, in MW2, I frequently have moments where I put a ton of bullets into a guy who kills me only to see on the killcam that I never fired my gun. I am willing to live with kill trades and some lag kills in order to have the shots that connect on my screen count.
Since the first patch which seems to have helped the connectivity issues, I have had no issue with the netcode in UC2 and think it is fine as it is.
 

 

Message Edited by SurrealPanic on 12-02-2009 12:34 AM
Message Edited by SurrealPanic on 12-02-2009 01:14 AM
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Sackboy
Registered: 07/18/2009
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Dec 2, 2009

SurrealPanic wrote:

GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS wrote:

polycarp you make this long well thought out reply but missed the most important things...

 

 MW2 lag compensation is not noticable even half as much as U2. 

MW2 people rarely (if ever) TRADE kills like they do in U2.

MW2 you don't die a few seconds AFTER being shot at. 

 

Even if everything you said is true... at the end of the day, lag compensation works in MW2 and is barely noticed, but it doesnt work nearly aswell in U2. BS lag compensation moments happen all the time in U2 and is very noticable and annoying to players. Either way, something should be done about it in U2.

Message Edited by GUNSOFDAPATRIOTS on 12-01-2009 09:17 PM

 
In comparing UC2 with MW2, basically UC2 trusts client hit detection more than in MW2. In UC2, you will trade kills (because both players killed each other on their own screen) and you may get killed a little after being shot. But, in MW2, I frequently have moments where I put a ton of bullets into a guy who kills me only to see on the killcam that I never fired my gun. I am willing to live with kill trades and some lag kills in order to have the shots that connect on my screen count.
Since the first patch which seems to have helped the connectivity issues, I have had no issue with the netcode in UC2 and think it is fine as it is.
 

 

Message Edited by SurrealPanic on 12-02-2009 12:34 AM
Message Edited by SurrealPanic on 12-02-2009 01:14 AM
 

 
 
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I can admit you're right about the Kill Cams. Many times I got shots off, but then the Kill Cam shows that I never fired my gun.
 
Still though, if ND wants this game to appeal to casuals they gotta do something about the Lag Compensation. It simply looks bad while playing and irritates players. Since there's no kill cam in Uncharted... what you dont know won't hurt
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First Son
Registered: 07/08/2010
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Re: Lag Compensation: Biggest BS in this game

Jul 8, 2010

hey guys,first off its pretty easy to host a game on mw2/ps3,how u say,start and stop a game 3 times after u see 50ms time pass by(same way as u did it in first modernwarfare).4th time i always get host/ps3 in dmz is a must,if u cant do  dmz process , turn off ur router firewall and all filters,As for time delay lag,thats easily overcome! just use an aimbot,it works by sending out a signal to the guy ur shooting at, and tells his ps3 that u shot him!thats how i deal with ms problems,am i a cheat,nope,im just smart enough to overcome infinaty wards poor excuse for a matchmaking server.aimbots are loaded up through ur single player mode,check out utube on how to install.they can never be patched because it runs inside ur ps3 memory.my kd ratio is 1.82 with a sniper/50 cal.gl hf guys

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