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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

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Jan 11, 2013

tapantaola wrote:

I think we'll have to agree that we disagree, since we come from different backgrounds. You want something more barebones like Counterstrike, which is understandable since you are a Counterstrike vet, while on the other hand I want something different that won't resemble other shooter games. UC2 MP was my first Competitive MP shooter. Granted, ND may have copied a lot of stuff from other games, but those intros are something unique and you won't find that in another game. I give them credit for that.

Here's the thing: I'm willing to embrace innovation, even if that means that I have to sacrifice some of my fun. The first airplanes were bothersome, clunky and problematic in general. Some people endured those early models and that's why we are able to enjoy modern and comfy aircrafts today. If people 100 years ago said "screw those pesky planes, we don't need them!", we wouldn't have air transport today. TL;DR: No pain, no gain.

In the same vein, I don't want to discourage ND to innovate. They will do some mistakes, but that's inevitable with every new concept. They should implement more dynamic events in UC4 MP, but at the same time, they should also implement better netcode to reduce lag and a better spawning algorithm, along with a spawn protection mechanism that will discourage spawn camping/killing.

Also, there are only TWO intros (Airstrip/London) in only ONE mode (Team Deathmatch). I'm not selfish enough to suggest that ALL modes (such as Classic or Plunder) should have intros. So, why do you want to remove those intros from ONE mode? I thought Classic existed for people who don't want to deal with intros, kickbacks, loadouts etc.

I also embraced the concept of voting (although it was poorly implemented, aka separate maps), because it's a middle-ground solution. Sometimes I'll get an intro map, sometimes I won't. Fair enough. Everyone will get what they want once in a while. That's why I've also said that they shouldn't have removed Hardcore, they should have integrated it with Classic, so that everyone will be pleased. When you remove things, you should expect some backlash.


 

I think Tap we will have to agree to disagree.

I have no problem with innovation as long as it doesn't get in the way of the fundamentals of the gameplay. Loadouts, kickbacks and stat hats, I've come to really enjoy the options and appreciate them.

The in-game environmental events work well, adding a little spice to the gameplay. The fundamental difference between them and the intros, is that the events don't get in the way of the gameplay and the competitive element.

I want those intros removed because they're a failed experiment. If you design something that doesn't work , do you continue to use it? No you take what you have learnt from it and innovate again. You don't sell a product containing it. They're such a huge contrast to the rest of the multiplayer.

The voting system is an interesting one. I only see the intros voted for when there's no choice. The voting system has an option which is London Underground Intro or Airstrip Intro. I guess that's the only way to get people to play the wretched things. 

My main issue is those sequences get in the way of the gameplay. Matches have been almost finished on those intros, not through any kind of skill or strategy. Those deaths have come through complete broken mayhem. Grenades which act like mega bombs and can't be thrown back. Spawns points that spawn both teams at the same time at the same point. Suicides because the environment does not work like the rest of the multiplayer or single player. People leaving because they can't stand it, which means everyone else has to go through the intro again. 

There's innovation and then there's selling a product with defects. I've seen the innovation and I admire it. Why though should I have to play a failed ND experiment which will never be fixed and is just left  in for no good reason?

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Survivor
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

PeteX19 wrote:

 

Host quits and the intro restarts

 

 


or when you're on the train it turns into the magic train heading to hogwarts...

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Naughty Paw
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

iceyfire54312 wrote:

TimeWarnerSux wrote:

Becareful what you wish for....

 

Those who were around the forums for the UC2 MP might remember a lot of people suggesting an idea for a train level.  Some even wanted a moving train level where occasionally a sign or platform would stick out and kill you if you didn't get out of the way.

 

I really give ND credit to listening to their fans and implementing a suggestion the community wanted.  Too bad the trains were wider.  This would give players more area to run around and less likely to fall off the train.


yep, and i was one of them 


 

I think it has more to do with the way the moving levels were created/implemented that makes them such failures. The idea of a moving level is great, but if done incorrectly, it can be a total flop, just like people say LU and Airstrip's opening sequences are.

 

Honestly, moving levels in online MP is quite a big feat at this point in video gaming history, but remember that something on this magnitude probably hasn't been done before/done on a wide scale across many games.

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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

[ Edited ]
Jan 11, 2013

@Pete

 

Nothing critical will be fixed at this point of time I'm afraid. Not even party splits or dead body glitch. TLOU is only 4 months away. I just gave them some suggestions for UC4 MP.

Did the intros bother you that much in the Summer beta?

 

Also, I don't think that people leave willingly during the intros... it's just that some of them have poor connections and get disconnected. It's not a coincidence that most of them have certain 3-letter clan tags from notoriously laggy regions. Smiley Wink

 

Don't forget that when the PSN was down (April-May 2011) ND devs didn't stop developing UC3 MP. They were playing the game in their corporate LAN. The thing is that LAN connections offer high speed (100-1000 Mbps) and almost zero latency (<1ms). I guess they never imagined that it wouldn't work ideally over the chaotic internet infrastructure. They should remember that for UC4 MP.


The voting system needs some changes as well. Separate maps was a horrible idea (Cog thought of that? lol). We should be able to have an extra voting screen/option to vote for intros or not.

To sum it up: good concept, but poor implementation. The concept should not be ditched, instead they improve the implementation in UC4 MP.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/The-Last-of-Us-Multiplayer/Ping-filter-toggle-SUPPORT-for-less-lag/m-p/40782623
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Naughty Paw
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

tapantaola wrote:

Don't forget that when the PSN was down (April-May 2011) ND devs didn't stop developing UC3 MP. They were playing the game in their corporate LAN. The thing is that LAN connections offer high speed (100-1000 Mbps) and almost zero latency (<1ms). I guess they never imagined that it wouldn't work ideally over the chaotic internet infrastructure. They should remember that for UC4 MP.


 

And even if they did use Internet connections instead of LAN for MP testing, I bet they used the best high speed Internet connection available where they are, as opposed to the generally low connection speeds of normal people and the lack of testing over long distances, AKA continent-wise distances.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

[ Edited ]
Jan 11, 2013

tapantaola wrote:

@Pete

 

Nothing critical will be fixed at this point of time I'm afraid. Not even party splits or dead body glitch. TLOU is only 4 months away. I just gave them some suggestions for UC4 MP.

Did the intros bother you that much in the Summer beta?

 

Also, I don't think that people leave willingly during the intros... it's just that some of them have poor connections and get disconnected. It's not a coincidence that most of them have certain 3-letter clan tags from notoriously laggy regions. Smiley Wink

 

Don't forget that when the PSN was down (April-May 2011) ND devs didn't stop developing UC3 MP. They were playing the game in their corporate LAN. The thing is that LAN connections offer high speed (100-1000 Mbps) and almost zero latency (<1ms). I guess they never imagined that it wouldn't work ideally over the chaotic internet infrastructure. They should remember that for UC4 MP.


The voting system needs some changes as well. Separate maps was a horrible idea (Cog thought of that? lol). We should be able to have an extra voting screen/option to vote for intros or not.

To sum it up: good concept, but poor implementation. The concept should not ditched, instead they improve the implementation in UC4 MP.


I'm in two minds of giving them feedback for Uncharted 4. They should know by now what failings need to be put right. They shouldn't have to be told. Play some other videogames Naughty Dog.

 

Remember all those "we listened to the community and..." statements when UC3 got released. Absolutely garbage. 

It does worry me with a QA team that wants to make the Uncharted series into street fighter, that UC4 will be the same blindfire/melee fest. All we can really do is leave them to it and hope they have learnt from the list of mistakes from Uncharted 3. In the end we have no control over the development at all. We wait till release, wait for the six month barrier of "Do jack **bleep** and just release DLC" and then technical fixes might become a priority.

No the intros didn't bother me because they were a new concept and it was a beta. Sprint got changed, the cutscene intros were taken out. What didn't work got removed or fixed and the game was better for it. This is the full release and after playing the same broken intros hundreds of times, it does get bothersome.

Isn't it obvious that the game wont run like it does on a lan connection. The beta clearly showed that they didn't work. Yet they remained just to promote the game for the adverts. No thought for the players who had to actually play on them at that point in development. Can't believe how many months it took to even get that voting option to bypass them. It's clear a lot of work was put into them and Cogburn just couldn't let them go. 

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

Well, the Summer beta had a huge player pool (1.5 million players <-- that's even bigger than CoD) and that's why they worked fine lag-wise. That's why no one had a problem back then.

The dwindling player pool doesn't really help and lag breaks a lot of mechanics, not just the intros... I'm hoping that UC3 F2P will alleviate the lag issues at least.

 

Also, they didn't remove the cutscenes because they "didn't work". They worked fine and many people liked them. They would be even cooler in the retail game, because we have more characters/customization.

They were removed because they were too lazy to implement cutscenes for 23 maps (retail game). We all know that the game was rushed. I don't like the fact that I cannot even have those cutscenes for Airstrip, Chateau and Yemen in Custom Game at the very least. I'm extremely annoyed when they remove options and they removed TONS of useful stuff from the Summer beta for no good reason at all.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/The-Last-of-Us-Multiplayer/Ping-filter-toggle-SUPPORT-for-less-lag/m-p/40782623
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

Da_Almighty_Guy wrote:

iceyfire54312 wrote:

TimeWarnerSux wrote:

Becareful what you wish for....

 

Those who were around the forums for the UC2 MP might remember a lot of people suggesting an idea for a train level.  Some even wanted a moving train level where occasionally a sign or platform would stick out and kill you if you didn't get out of the way.

 

I really give ND credit to listening to their fans and implementing a suggestion the community wanted.  Too bad the trains were wider.  This would give players more area to run around and less likely to fall off the train.


yep, and i was one of them 


 

I think it has more to do with the way the moving levels were created/implemented that makes them such failures. The idea of a moving level is great, but if done incorrectly, it can be a total flop, just like people say LU and Airstrip's opening sequences are.

 

Honestly, moving levels in online MP is quite a big feat at this point in video gaming history, but remember that something on this magnitude probably hasn't been done before/done on a wide scale across many games.


My fear is that Naughty Dog will stray away from making more moving Levels in UC4. I want more moving levels, however i want them to work right. If ND can just master it and make flawless moving levels then they can make entire maps that are moving.

 

I have a massive idea for a moving train map based off UC2, but until they master moving maps it would never work 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Why are the LU and AIrstrip Intros still in this game?

Jan 11, 2013

tapantaola wrote:

Well, the Summer beta had a huge player pool (1.5 million players <-- that's even bigger than CoD) and that's why they worked fine lag-wise. That's why no one had a problem back then.

The dwindling player pool doesn't really help and lag breaks a lot of mechanics, not just the intros... I'm hoping that UC3 F2P will alleviate the lag issues at least.

 

Also, they didn't remove the cutscenes because they "didn't work". They worked fine and many people liked them. They would be even cooler in the retail game, because we have more characters/customization.

They were removed because they were too lazy to implement cutscenes for 23 maps (retail game). We all know that the game was rushed. I don't like the fact that I cannot even have those cutscenes for Airstrip, Chateau and Yemen in Custom Game at the very least. I'm extremely annoyed when they remove options and they removed TONS of useful stuff from the Summer beta for no good reason at all.


The dwindling player pool did effect the lag on the intros. Even with 1.5 million players all the other problems that I mentioned remained. The reduced lag alone will not fix those intros.

You're right about the cutscenes. Still they were implemented the wrong way. The outros I could put up with because they played over the scoreboard at the end of the match. Lasting just as long as the scoreboard shows up before the game goes back to the lobby. The intros however annoyed the hell out of me. It was like watching the same advert over and over again. I wait 2-3 minutes to get into a match, only to waste more time  having to sit through that **bleep**. The only way I will put up with them in UC4 is if the match is loading while those intros are playing. Better than the endless ring of death which has plagued UC2 and UC3. Saying that I would prefer more time to chose my loadout and make last minute adjustments, than sit through the same boring cutscene.

Anything cinematic gets old after three viewings.for me. They might as well put a subway commercial before the match starts, which they probably will do for F2P lol

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Ghost of Sparta
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The PS4 will be more powerful (better GPU & more RAM) and...

Jan 11, 2013

The PS4 will be more powerful (better GPU & more RAM) and it will have a faster Blu-Ray drive (maybe even an SSD for caching), so the ideas that you suggested (moving train map & loading the map assets while playing an intro) may actually be feasible. Smiley Happy

They need to take their time for UC4. No rushing and no silly "technical difficulties" excuses.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/The-Last-of-Us-Multiplayer/Ping-filter-toggle-SUPPORT-for-less-lag/m-p/40782623
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