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Splicer
Registered: 12/02/2012
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 10, 2013
I think that's what makes this a great game, it's balanced! Any vehicle can seem like its op..
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Wastelander
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 13, 2013
There's apparently a confusion between what is glitch, and what is not. What shouldn't be in this game is the fact that Vermin receives one third of the damage while he's on the alt stage. However, it's fair game that you use a shield while you are in a state where your vehicle has extremely limited movement and visibility. If there were no extended shields, players would have to resort to camping in order to use their alt specials.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 20, 2013

Arzharkhel wrote:
There's apparently a confusion between what is glitch, and what is not. What shouldn't be in this game is the fact that Vermin receives one third of the damage while he's on the alt stage. However, it's fair game that you use a shield while you are in a state where your vehicle has extremely limited movement and visibility. If there were no extended shields, players would have to resort to camping in order to use their alt specials.

I disagree. There's a completely different angle to it from a Vermin's perspective--a rather unwanted one at that. The abuse comes from how frequent a Vermin uses the ALT attack, and why this is even important, not by what means it doesn't have protection or it needs to camp or what not. Truth is that a camping Vermin will likely lose to an offensive Vermin all the time: due to the fact that the primary is faster than the ALT and will always cancel out the special's point (of which the player can focus on getting in consistent damage towards a non-moving target who decided to simply camp and spam). One on one involving Vermins tend to be rather close because spamming primaries and missiles = completely equal and independent of anything except how one camps and tries to avoid putting themselves in a position to take that damage--needless to say, it's rather boring. 

 

In team games, it's the same. You can always use the ALT when you like; camping or not, but you can't play teamwork as well as you can when you choose to be a mobile Vermin. 

 

What becomes fishy and problematic is more based on playing style: the usage of the ALT's potentcy. Now I'm a player that can use the ALT a little too often this way, however, I don't over exert it by spamming shield exploits to make myself untouchable. The reason why you have to disable the use of the extended shield is because players will then be able to spam ALTs as shotguns and quick shot people all day, without any real risk. 

 

Have you ever played a Vermin that sees you and fires a 50 damage ALT instantly? No/ yes... I've seen both. Some were pitiful, meanwhile, others got pretty crafty. Point being I realized it was pointless to not do the same when I was first discovering Vermin. 

 

Heck, I started swapping to the ALT 50 in order to increase my damage output and several other things. Eventually, I took it to a higher level and now use the ALT 100 as well. Even though I'm aware that if I time my shields at the right time, I can then eliminate any "AA" waste and gain consistent protection to further improve my offensive and defensive potential. 

 

Vermins have simple stats:

210 HP 

Slow speed, but stable and respectable acceleration. 

Agile movement and hopping; due to good drift properties. 

Special that's powerful, and respawns quickly.

Standard AA and other base stats. 

 

What makes them OP'd though is mostly how their special gives them a complete advantage over all cars except maybe Outlaw. 

 

Versus anything small, that special kills those things always; those 50 point hits basically slaughter them.

Versus RK/ DW, the Vermin has more armor and can spam one-shot specials and stalkers faster than the spam cars can handle. If they have too low HPs, the Vermin can be crafty and start spamming the ALT tactics. 

Versus mid-class cars like RB, Vermin, MW, and Shadow, the Vermin will beat a MW/ Shadow at range every time and has better movement drift than either while in CQC. It will beat a RB that tries to use the magnet every time as well, and will be able to beat it at range as well since a Vermin can dodge a special from a RB. It may be a deadlock against itself, but if the skill level or usage knowledge is higher, the Vermin should be able to overpower the other easy too. 

Versus Outlaw the issue becomes more about how often the Vermin runs or what weapons it has. It's a tough matchup for a Vermin. With extended shielding; it's laughable. 

Versus heavy class cars; Vermins basically spam the direct 100 to go for the death blow. It's usually a flamesaw if you can T-dash into targets. Given that if you can weaken opponents enough before that, you've won. Lastly, they honestly can't risk ramming you since they'll give you a free chance to hit you with it. So, they're forced to play defensive until you make some error or mistake. 

 

If you can eliminate the extended shield exploit, then you can completely eliminate the effectiveness that an ALT heavy spammer has over the competition. Given if his choice to use the ALT fails, he's looking at taking a lot of damage without being able to counterattack. That's due to taking a risk based on potential. This isn't actually something that's unfair to the Vermin, neither:

 

The ALT has a heavy spike in ability to stagger. This means, if you use it right, you can send opponents to the point of being unable to recover fast enough to harm you. In fact, you can even trap them by using super mines and other things to harm them. You're literally able to calculate how effective the stagger will be to discourage your opponent from trying to attack you while you retreat during that vulnerable second. In fact, you can even skip that whole vulnerable second by pressing a certain button during a specific point; thus, overcoming any weakness anyway. (needless to say, I don't do this either)

 

So it would be a question of learning how to use the ALT correctly rather than forcing it like extended shield junkies do consistently. For example; Quien spams the ALT every time he sees you. Mihyaz is another novice who abuses it too. You have guys who abuse it without having the brain power to calculate when it is advantageous and isn't. Then you have smarter people who do:

They use the ALT as a finisher. 

They use the ALT to stagger so that the recovery is bypassed and the opposing player can't recover fast enough to move into position to harm you.

They use it to juggle an opponent for a team combo (because opponents can't just target you during a 3 on 1)

They use it to avoid the effects of a remote bomb doing heavy damage (given someone has it stuck on you)

They use it on runners in combination with other high-damage, quick-launch ranged attacks to get the most damage output quickly out; especially against runners who wouldn't venture to attack you anyway. 

They use it to off-balance opponents who wish to kill your own teammates. 

They use it near slopes and map environmental structures (truthfully, due to the quick stop, it's hard to pull off) to create a sort of slide shot that curves and makes it hard for opponents to counterattack. 

They use it as a dying move to get out the most damage possible when they're doomed. 

 

Basically my point is that through usage you can eliminate the need to consider extended shielding a must in order to avoid taking some lofty damage or some excuse because you wanted to be some cheap ALT abuser. 

 

The issue is that EXTENDED SHIELDING does have tremendeous advantage: 

- it reduces the cost of AA needed to use shields. 

- it increase the duration of the shield and you can't simply wait it out like some suggest due to the shield actually lasting a few seconds after the return phase; which during then you can dominate people by being a cheap Vermin and doing it again (and yes you never lose the original shield). 

- It puts you in a position to move towards the Vermin and attack him, which makes you an open target for the Vermin's team because you're basically forced to stop moving. 

 

So while you assume that it's fine because the Vermin can't move... I feel it's not. You abuse your AA, and given your already known advantage, you're basically looking to abuse other aspects too. So now you have little to any weaknesses. You simply can abuse your way to victory over and over again. Does this make it fair? No. Vermins only look like a cheap car, when you can simply change the way you play and play slightly smarter to avoid being put in a situation that's risky. 

 

 

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Splicer
Registered: 04/16/2012
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 20, 2013
@Vad- That was a lengthy but good post. Unfortunately, this post will not stop the problem.
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First Son
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 24, 2013
Actually it's not a glitch the shield wile in alt weapon col down time lasts twice as long. Don't quote me on this but I think he said its for balancing purposes.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 25, 2013

baaw9000 wrote:
Actually it's not a glitch the shield wile in alt weapon col down time lasts twice as long. Don't quote me on this but I think he said its for balancing purposes.

Jaffe stated that the whole cool down animation was basically the failure of the game engine being unable to process the graphics instantly, as they wanted it to be quick and crisp between firing the special and then returning; like MW. 

 

Luckily, this "mistake" on the programmer's part turned into a balance fix to limiting the abusal of those two specials. 

 

Sadly, the extended shield has a different issue: the AA problem. It is an issue because you can basically time it a certain way (which isn't what you're talking about) to make sure that Vermin doesn't lose any AA and still be able to shield constantly. 

 

This enables people to abuse this combination over and over without any real fear because AA never really disappears--and if you're aware of the advantage of AA, you can take as many risks as you like. 

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First Son
Registered: 04/30/2012
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 26, 2013
Hugh that is a problem.. Well maybe instead of a extended shield wille in cool down you take partial damage like instead of a normal 100% damage you take 98.5 % or something like that. Well I don't agree that the engine can't handle the process. It can handle because before the piloted gurney nerf was added as son the patient exploded it went instantly to your car. Speaking of wich instead of meaty's 2nd special cool down it should have been the farther the gurney goes the more damage it does (sort of like shadows special) to prevent shot gunning the gurney.
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First Son
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Re: Vermin/meat wagon question

Mar 26, 2013
PS: I know that much of meaty's controversy come from his primary being ridiculously accurate. I'm sorta on the fence with that one, I do agree the homing is a bit much BUT I think that's the only advantage he has over more armored foes (like sweet tooth) because let's face it unless you are well armed no way you can survive the fight due to the ambulance's slow speed ( oh the irony ) and you won't be able to scape your rival range of attack. Idk maybe MW might be OP but since I'm a huge meat wagon fan ( mostly because its a ambulance in a twisted metal game) I might be blind to its overpowerdness. Is that even a real word?
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