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Splicer
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
Papa Joel is only human, as Ellie says in the trailer:
"You either hang onto your morals and die, or do whatever it takes to survive." I think this is Joels' motto since she said he told her that.
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“The worlds been hard on us…hard on him. Joel’s done some terrible things. He tells me that on this journey, you either hang on to your morals and die, or do whatever it takes to survive.”
— Ellie (The Last of Us)
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Sackboy
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

[ Edited ]
Aug 3, 2013

He is bad/evil but only due to the influence of the world around him. To be honest, I do not see anyone handing out gifts and food to everyone or go hug every survivor/Hunter there is in the game... everyone kills to survive. Or survives to kill. Same thing.

 

We need to remember that Joel wasn't evil before the outbreak, he wasn't in jails etc., so he wasn't a bad person himself, meaning killing people outside any functional QZ in the post-pandemic world is... still bad, but perhaps necessary. The reason we see Hunters/bandits/military as evil, is because they're the ones shooting at Joel/trying to kill him (or Ellie, but her Invisibility powers when Joel is hiding help her a lot), thus they "must be evil", but The Last of Us is not that one-dimensional, luckily. After all, they're just trying to survive/hold control... in their way. Smiley Happy

 

[Spoilers about ending and partially mid-game below]

 

Spoiler

However, I would have to say Fireflies were bad... or at least I disliked them. They were ready to kill Ellie without even asking her, not letting Joel see her one last time (they fought their way across America, practically alone for crying out loud), and don't tell me how "Marlene had to go through much more" or something like that. She couldn't have possibly gotten to know her soldiers as well as we (or Joel and Ellie) got to know each other or e.g. Sam and Henry.

 

Although, I do not blame Marlene for it, because she said in a recording "Asking me was more of a formality." but I do blame Fireflies altogether. And about the ending - yes, it was selfish, but come on. Pretty much everyone would have done the same as Joel in his situation.

 

 

________________________

I have acquired the grade of Master in The Last of Us story/character/game knowledge as I have played it through 9 times.

... I have no life.
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Wastelander
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
@Ratsneve Well how could he have done that? They were in a pretty deep conversation. Not sure why you think Joel's a **bleep** though.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
Exactly @ homes. Ratsneve put yourself in Joel's shoes. You lost the one person you love most in the world. You're in a world right now where people kill each other for personal gain. Morals are out of the window. And the fireflies want to kill a girl who saved your life multiple times for a cure. A cure that the fireflies would KEEP FOR THEMSELVES. So your telling me you wouldn't be stone cold as well? Well you wouldn't last a week in that world.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

[ Edited ]
Aug 3, 2013

homes500 wrote:
@Ratsneve Well how could he have done that? They were in a pretty deep conversation. Not sure why you think Joel's a **bleep** though.

By ND removing any happy scenes between Joel and Ellie I'm left with no choice but to label him a bad "dad" regardless of the circumstances.  If Joel had any humanity left in him (Okay, my **bleep** word was a little over the top maybe) he would have discussed things with Ellie as soon as they were safely away from the Fireflies.  All he had to do was play the surgeons recording and then play Marlene's recordings, and then ask Ellie if she was so willing to help the Fireflies with a cure she was would give up her life?  My best guess in Ellie's own words would have said something like, "Fu-- Joel, the last thing I remember was losing consciousness in the water.  The Fireflies were going to examine me--no life or death choices were on the table."

 

The funny thing is that I felt there were a couple points in the story where Joel was warming up.  Like it or not Ellie was intelligent and grown up at 14.  Ellie tried several times to get in a deep conversation with Joel but this is something Joel was ill prepared for and answered Ellie with just one word.  She deserved more then a lie especially with all the evidence Joel had on him.

IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...

~{Ratsneve}~
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013

Interesting thoughts @ Ratsneve but I'd like you to clarify something; Your right that Ellie's intelligent and mature for her age but a kid is still a kid. Just put your self in Joels shoes again. Would you really be comfortable letting your 14 year old sister/daughter make such a decision?

 

@WinterEdit. Spot on, the characters in TLOU are not one dimensional and good/bad isn't black or white. This is one of the main reasons THOU is one the best written and thought provoking games ever made. However, I do think that even in THOU where morals and ethics are apparently dead there are still different levels of evil. For example, Joel, for all his faults could never be like David, if you know what I mean.........

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
Kinetic, from YouTube, put it perfectly,
" sometimes the truth isn't worth the pain that will follow."

it's easy to take the white knight approach and say you should always tell the truth, but in reality, things just don't work that way.

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Limit Breaker
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
Joel is the sort I'd want on my side, post apocalypse.

Moral standing immaterial.


[ 39 ] Every time a mine downs someone an Angel gets its wings.
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Limit Breaker
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013
He didn't tell her the truth for fear shed willingly sacrifice herself. Its dumfoundedly obvious


[ 39 ] Every time a mine downs someone an Angel gets its wings.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel - Good or bad?

Aug 3, 2013

no1_narwhal_fan wrote:

Interesting thoughts @ Ratsneve but I'd like you to clarify something; Your right that Ellie's intelligent and mature for her age but a kid is still a kid. Just put your self in Joels shoes again. Would you really be comfortable letting your 14 year old sister/daughter make such a decision?

 

@WinterEdit. Spot on, the characters in TLOU are not one dimensional and good/bad isn't black or white. This is one of the main reasons THOU is one the best written and thought provoking games ever made. However, I do think that even in THOU where morals and ethics are apparently dead there are still different levels of evil. For example, Joel, for all his faults could never be like David, if you know what I mean.........


Making what decision?  And without giving her any evidence to the contrary I carried in my backpack?  Do you really think Ellie's going to say something like, "Joel, you don't understand.  You should have left me to die unconscious on the operating table for the good of humanity."  I don't think a child would ever make that choice and I don't think a parent or guardian would either.

 

Another tidbit for Ellie to brood on because our stiff 'parent' was not very intellectual or tolerant is that why he was deathly ill Ellie would have gone entirely through his backpack--we know she picked up the bow and arrows at least.  She would have learned such tidbits as 60% of the entire world being infected and either roaming around or dead and lost.

 

So, under the same circumstances with 60% of the human race gone already I would let my child decide whether they wanted to live or die.  Yet further on top of that is the fact that it remains obsurd that out of the remaining 40% Ellie would be the only person immune.  That wouldn't be logical.  For all we know some other part of the world already had a working vaccine.  And I'm not buying the this one-man's conclusion in several hours of examination (the surgeon) that to understand Ellie's immunity properly she would have to die.

 

Anyway, just like I am afforded the discussion defending my reasoning so should Ellie.  In the end there are people like the Firefles who are going to strap Ellie's struggling body down to the table and kill her and people like Joel are going to do everything in their power to save her.

IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...IMO...

~{Ratsneve}~
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