Reply
Fender Bender
Registered: 09/25/2011
Offline
3270 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

Some people need to realize Home paying user base is not that big. With the increase of weekly content release we saw over the last 2 years the chances of turning a profit on one item is getting slim. How many 2-5 bucks items you need to sell to make a living? Development cost, business expense, Sony's cut...

Remember when we used to see half a dozen Avi wearing the cool new outfit of the week in every popular public space? We don't see that anymore and even then Home wasn't the cash cow some people think. There is just too much cool stuff for the limited paying user base.

 How many LMO's, private place, shirts, pants, dress you can ask the average user to buy? Sure there was a couple bad idea. One mistake shouldn't drown a company. It's when you can't turn out a profit on good idea that the problem start.

What I see in a near to mid range future is some dev leaving while the smaller one getting stronger.

Should Sony put more effort in advertising Home? For our sake, yes. But I think they have other, more urgent matter on their priority list.

 

Freedom is not the power to say no.
Real freedom is the power to say yes.


6EQUJ5 Do you copy?


co-founder
The Black Hat Squad/Black Hat Squadron/Novus Black Hats
Novus international elite force
Black Hats website
Black Hats on Facebook
Message 31 of 129 (502 Views)
I Only Post Everything
Registered: 03/31/2011
Offline
676 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

MrFirstPlayer wrote:
50 shades of Peeps.

I agree, I'm not sure who thought reskinning the peeps 20 times was a good idea, or a profitable one. For me, innovation seems to really drive sales. Even Lockwood is playing catch-up with Veemee and Juggernaut when it comes to active items and LMOs, and are slow to adapt to the new core improvements; new colors of shoes or glow earrings just won't cut it any more. Especially Veemee recently, they are really picking up the slack for devs that may have kicked the bucket. So while we may lose an older dev this makes room for things like Acorn Park and Serenity, so may be better off for it.

Message 32 of 129 (494 Views)
Fender Bender
Registered: 03/17/2009
Offline
3152 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

Fly_Mixed_Papi_ wrote:

I made some posts to Heavy Water and they really aren't interested in Home because they can't make enough money to support themselves. Now, this could be from a number of things:

 

1. Not enough users who spend money in Home

2. Time consuming development process for PS3 hardware

3. Sonny's percentage is TOO LARGE A CUT for developers to sustain themselves and their companies

4. No support from Sony for developers (holding back spaces because of "O&A" concerns)

 

Here is the post the response I received from Heavy Water:

 

"Heavy Water Sadly, there is no money in Home to support a full studio and it fluctuates quite a bit... We will do what we can but its not that easy and we would like to see users create their own worlds,, hence, AGF!"

 

Heavy Water is promoting their new product due out soon. What do you guys think about Sony & Home and how it's treated? Why is Home not promoted like it should be? If a company can't make a profit, then why would they even bother? I guess this is WHY we see new items for sale update after update, the companies have to make money and Home isn't allowing that!

 

Sony, you HAVE TO EITHER make your percentage LOWER and/or not CHARGE developers to obtain rights to MAKE ITEMS FOR HOME! Your business sense is flawed in this department. Lower your percentage and DO NOT CHARGE Home developers for the SDK! You already charge and arm & a leg for the developer hardware, do you REALLY NEED TO CHARGE FOR A SDK as well?? So many things Sony has screwed up on with Home is ridiculous. To actually see a developer LEAVE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE MONEY should let SONY KNOW their business tactics are flawed and should adjust to create a SUCCESSFUL PRODUCT!

 

Honestly, if the SDK was free and the ps3 development hardware was cheaper, we could see TONS of items, spaces, apartments, etc in Home. I understand Sony is a business to make a profit, but if your product is TOO EXPENSIVE for a company to develop for, why would they even chance it? Why would you make developing a virtual item so expensive and time consuming? Sony, do you realize the lost potentianl in the Home app? Have you even bothered to look at other virtual worlsds and how the operate? They make a PROFIT! As one of the, if NOT THE LARGEST electronics manufactures in the world, do you not do your homework? Sony, do you realize the money pit you are ignoring because of your business tactics? WAKE UP and see Home can be a HUGE money maker if you STOP IGNORING IT!

 

What do the Home users think?


I have seen similar responses from other Devs as well, Here is a link to a Response from Lockwood... 

 

 

@Patchex Big games, like the Sodiums and Mercia, take a long time to develop compared to clothing, and the returns haven't been

as good :/

 

found here on twitter... https://twitter.com/LockwoodLKWD/status/301291338043887617

 

Yet its not Just SONY and The Dev's that are to blame here... its the community that has created the biggest part of the problems... Granted Sony and the Dev's let it happen...

 

People like me warned them before HOME ever even came out, yet even now it seems as if no one is listening...and if they are maybe they just dont want to deal with it...  Here is a link to another thread that is very similar to this one and some comments I made as well as a link found in my post to an older Thread I wrote to try and address some of these issues...

 

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-Home/Do-You-Think-HOME-Devs-Are-Price-Gouging/m-p...

 

Alot of the Statistic numbers and conversations about this type of thing have been deleted from the fourms sadly over the years and the changing of MODs in the forums... The VLR threads held quite a bit of info that is now gone about HOW much of a Cash COW HOME was at the time...

 

Like Xi for instance indirectly brought in Million's of dollars in the 6 weeks it ran...Not for Ndreams yet for HOME as a whle, Yet No one wants to admit why that was happening and refuses to bring it back to that point in a micro transaction manner,  anyway, I could sit here and write a huge essay style post about this crap, yet There are some links here you can follow and read what I have been writing for years if you really want to know how I feel about the subject... 

 

Photobucket
Message 33 of 129 (479 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 10/01/2009
Offline
5310 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

D-Nitrate wrote:

People blaming Mall Hacks and ISE have no clue what they are talking about.  In fact, Mall Hacks allow people to SPEND money on items that are not currently available in the stores.

 

ISE allows people to get non purchasable items, and yes, while "some" (very very few) of those items would not be possible to get without some kind of purchase, these are rare examples.  Instead, what I suspect ISE has done is brought back a lot of users that gave up on Home, or even brought new users into Home with the lore of getting a bunch of free items right of the bat... And once they start using Home again or for the first time, they will find MANY of the items that are really nice they have to buy, and may in fact do so - which is also why we never hear from any of the developers complaining about ISE.  Interesting huh?

 

I am sure there are MANY reasons Home is failing, Mall hacks and ISE are not the problem, if anything I suspect they have breathed a little bit of new life into Home by bringing in users that would otherwise not care at all about Home, and like a drug dealer who gives away free 'stuff' at the start, once hooked they start spending on items that are only available from the stores.

 

If you want to know why Home is losing customers, here are some reasonable explanations:

 

  • Far too many technical errors causing disconnects and even system freezing directly related to Home.
  • Numerous problems with spaces and content.
  • Numerous problems with item management.
  • Numerous problems with organization and navigation.
  • Numerous problems with shopping.
  • Very poor Customer Relations & Communication
  • Prices have gotten far too high.  When a hot tub costs more than a PSN game, its a huge red flag.
  • Almost no promotional support, even from Sony.

 

What Home needs is more users, it really is as simple as that, and luring in new users with ISE isn't nearly enough.  

 

For years we have been told that Home has/had "millions of users" which any reasonable person new was terribly misleading.  That said, Home certainly has the potential to attract millions of users, but not when the company that manages it is doing such a terrible job addressing issues with the service, communicating with their customers, and refuses to promote it, outside a weekly blog posts that likely few even read any more that don't already use the service, and gets fewer comments from month to month.

 

However the problem now is that even with a significant promotional campaign, Sony has also allowed the quality of the service to deteriorate to such a sad state of affairs, one only has to browse through the support forum to see just how bad it has gotten compared to just a couple years ago.

 

While it is perfectly understandable that long time users will stop using a service or MMO game as time goes by due to many outside influences, but what we often see in the case of Home is the driving influence of people leaving Home are inside influences, specifically the many problems with Home that make using the service an unnecessary burden.

 

The reasons spaces like Sodium are almost entirely empty of users is that longtime users have already moved on to newer spaces.  If Home had a healthy revolving user base, there would always be new users to keep these older spaces full... But they aren't.

 

As the user base dies out, developers are forced to raise prices... But raising prices also help drive users away... So it's an unsustainable strategy that will just cause Home to die off even quicker and force more devs to leave.

 

This is why so many see that unless things change, Home will die out much sooner than any of us would like it to.


So if your business is losing money, the key is to encourage people to steal things?

 

Seriously?

Follow me on Twitter:
twitter.com/hearitwow

Watch past episodes:
HomeCast at HomeStation Magazine

Message 34 of 129 (463 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 02/20/2008
Offline
8666 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

HearItWow wrote:
So if your business is losing money, the key is to encourage people to steal things?

 

Seriously?


So if your business is losing money you would not fix an exploit that has been going on for years?  I know I've been saying the same thing over and over again.  BUT!...  The people who use ISE are just doing what Sony ask of us (Open Beta Testers) and that is test the Home beta.  Sony has asked us beta testers to report bugs, expoits and glitches to Sony and thats what they have been doing.  It's not there falt Sony is refusing to fix an exploit.

 

Also the word steal does not really fit here seeing how the only items ISE works on are free ones.  Smiley Wink

***********************************
Folding@home Team #118000
***********************************
GAPHome

             

               General

Message 35 of 129 (446 Views)
0 Likes
Hekseville Citizen
Registered: 11/15/2012
Offline
254 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

King0fHearts2007 wrote:

Also the word steal does not really fit here seeing how the only items ISE works on are free ones.  Smiley Wink


ISE can also be used with paid owner only rewards and stuff. Pretty much any rewards can be ISE. Even the gift machine items.

Message 36 of 129 (431 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 02/20/2008
Offline
8666 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

a1557851 wrote:
ISE can also be used with paid owner only rewards and stuff. Pretty much any rewards can be ISE. Even the gift machine items.

"paid owner only rewards and stuff"?  Can you give examples?  Sorry I have no idea what your talking about.

 

My point was ISE only works on free items.  "Pretty much any rewards" the point of a reward is getting something for "FREE".

***********************************
Folding@home Team #118000
***********************************
GAPHome

             

               General

Message 37 of 129 (408 Views)
0 Likes
Survivor
Registered: 05/07/2012
Offline
1350 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

D-Nitrate wrote:

People blaming Mall Hacks and ISE have no clue what they are talking about.  In fact, Mall Hacks allow people to SPEND money on items that are not currently available in the stores.

 

ISE allows people to get non purchasable items, and yes, while "some" (very very few) of those items would not be possible to get without some kind of purchase, these are rare examples.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

(No, it adds up and you very well know it. It isn't rare either when it's across 100's of users. It happens to Lockwood, Veemee, nDreams and so on, it isn't rare. Don't bulls*** us, either talk about it for what it is, or don't talk about it at all, ok?)

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 Instead, what I suspect ISE has done is brought back a lot of users that gave up on Home, or even brought new users into Home with the lore of getting a bunch of free items right of the bat... And once they start using Home again or for the first time, they will find MANY of the items that are really nice they have to buy, and may in fact do so - which is also why we never hear from any of the developers complaining about ISE.  Interesting huh?

 

I am sure there are MANY reasons Home is failing, Mall hacks and ISE are not the problem, if anything I suspect they have breathed a little bit of new life into Home by bringing in users that would otherwise not care at all about Home, and like a drug dealer who gives away free 'stuff' at the start, once hooked they start spending on items that are only available from the stores.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 D, this is an assumption of yours. I see a bunch of people running around with ISE who don't buy a thing. Sure there are many who have ISE who buy *tons* of stuff. But let's include the rest of the world, ok? Most who get ISE are looking for everything free anyway, including 'cam sex' and other crap. It's sad, but it's true, and if you opened your eyes, you would see it. Look around, then notice those ID's with the ISE disappear for weeks at a time, cuz they have no reason to play, they are bored, they never wanted to spend anything, they never planned to. They got on, they got it free through a friend or as an alternate, n then they are gone. Yeah that really helps Home, okay. Here's an estimate for you, an example: if 500 people in North America get ISE, how many of those people actually buy *more than* $20 of anything from a store in Playstation Home? Maybe 5, and maybe 45 other people who get ISE actually spend at least $20. But that leaves you with about 450 people who have ISE but don't, won't & never plan to spend a dime in Playstation Home. Get on Home and look around instead of spending all your time on the forums talking about things where you only have part of the info. Idc if you do it as an alternate. Do it.

 

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

If you want to know why Home is losing customers, here are some reasonable explanations:

 

  • Far too many technical errors causing disconnects and even system freezing directly related to Home.
  • Numerous problems with spaces and content.
  • Numerous problems with item management.
  • Numerous problems with organization and navigation.
  • Numerous problems with shopping.
  • Very poor Customer Relations & Communication
  • Prices have gotten far too high.  When a hot tub costs more than a PSN game, its a huge red flag.
  • Almost no promotional support, even from Sony.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

(All of these problems listed above would be solved by having Home on the Playstation 4, anyone with any sense knows this)

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What Home needs is more users, it really is as simple as that, and luring in new users with ISE isn't nearly enough.  

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Most of those users are kids without jobs, D. You know this, it's not like they are going to start spending money because they get a bunch of free stuff. People have to *want* to be in PS Home, *who enjoy spending time in Home* to spend money in Home. Not a bunch of sponges who are looking for a game world where they can get everything free. *Most* of the types of users that ISE brings into Home are not spending a dime, and never will. You want facts D? Start looking around at those who are wearing all ISE but never buy a thing, or if they do, they spend maybe $20 once, and that's it. Ask them to change outfits or ask them to take you to a personal space (That you must buy, not ISE), take some statistics among *all* those with ISE, then get back to everyone else before spouting it as fact. Attracting kids & those out of work or whatever through ISE is *not* going to help Home get on the PS4. That is a fact.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

For years we have been told that Home has/had "millions of users" which any reasonable person new was terribly misleading.  That said, Home certainly has the potential to attract millions of users, but not when the company that manages it is doing such a terrible job addressing issues with the service, communicating with their customers, and refuses to promote it, outside a weekly blog posts that likely few even read any more that don't already use the service, and gets fewer comments from month to month.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Home does have millions of users. But that doesn't mean they are spending a dime. How many spenders does Home have? That is a much better question.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

However the problem now is that even with a significant promotional campaign, Sony has also allowed the quality of the service to deteriorate to such a sad state of affairs, one only has to browse through the support forum to see just how bad it has gotten compared to just a couple years ago.

 

While it is perfectly understandable that long time users will stop using a service or MMO game as time goes by due to many outside influences, but what we often see in the case of Home is the driving influence of people leaving Home are inside influences, specifically the many problems with Home that make using the service an unnecessary burden.

 

The reasons spaces like Sodium are almost entirely empty of users is that longtime users have already moved on to newer spaces.  If Home had a healthy revolving user base, there would always be new users to keep these older spaces full... But they aren't.

 

As the user base dies out, developers are forced to raise prices... But raising prices also help drive users away... So it's an unsustainable strategy that will just cause Home to die off even quicker and force more devs to leave.

 

This is why so many see that unless things change, Home will die out much sooner than any of us would like it to.


Much of what you have said is very true. However, you know you have choices with ISE. You can choose only the free rewards or go after things in developer gift machines that should be paid for. I have no issues with ISE that is of free rewards. But when you are wringing the developers gift machines by stealing the stuff, that isn't helping a d*mn thing for Home and *you know it* D.

 

You love this world of Home? Don't promote stealing, don't include ISE that is of items that are not free rewards. If you are a hacker, and you care about Home at all, then I suggest that you stop the ISE of developer gift machines. It is stealing and you know it. It will be a reason for Home *not* to be on the PS4. It doesn't help Home, it hurts it for everyone. Of course if you don't care, keep it up, but you're going to have to find another world to steal from, as Home won't be around thanks to you hackers who promote the theft.

 

Info for those not in the light: ISE is *not* Mall Hack.  Mack Hack is accessing server stores, including stores long gone for *purchasing* whatever. ISE includes free rewards from all regions. But ISE currently, also includes items from the developers gift machines, such as Lockwood and Veemee <-- I don't care how you justify that, it's stealing, and you know Sony and the developers know it's going on. That does not and will *not ever* help PS Home in any way. It forces Lockwood and Veemee to develop more store items and neglect their gift machines. Any sane developer would.

 

I will repeat it:

 

If you are a hacker, and you care about Home at all, then I suggest that you stop the ISE of developer gift machines.

 

As a hacker, you either do so (in PS Home) because you make significant money off of it, *or* you enjoy PS Home itself and the attention that people can get from the old and/or rare items (and that's all fine when it's just free rewards).

 

But it isn't going to be any long-term money if you kill Home due to it. Best think about it. n hundreds of PSN users are going to despise you in the long run if they enjoyed Home enough to want to see it on the PS4, but it doesn't make it, because *you* keep promoting theft by including these gift machine items.

 

Don't include gift machine items, it isn't cool, it isn't right, and it isn't going to help make you any real friends or long-term money.

 

It might help you get into deep **** though.

 

it_happens_you're_NOT_exempt.jpg

 

Yeah_it_couldbe_better_withouthieves.jpg

 

If you keep helping people steal crap, then Home won't ever be on the PS4 because there won't be any reason to bother.

 

If you hack, don't include gift machine items, please.

 

 

 

 

Your_Empress x7 flirt leader worldwide final and forever photo Your_Empress x7 forever final_zpssgnzebgr.jpg
Message 38 of 129 (406 Views)
Limit Breaker
Registered: 08/15/2007
Offline
16565 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

King0fHearts2007 wrote:

a1557851 wrote:
ISE can also be used with paid owner only rewards and stuff. Pretty much any rewards can be ISE. Even the gift machine items.

"paid owner only rewards and stuff"?  Can you give examples?  Sorry I have no idea what your talking about.


The lockwood gift machine was once hit for coins. Those coins you purchase with money. It was taken offline and fixed.

HomeStationMagazine
Message 39 of 129 (402 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 02/20/2008
Offline
8666 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

Jersquall wrote:
The lockwood gift machine was once hit for coins. Those coins you purchase with money. It was taken offline and fixed.

I'm trying to stay on-topic so talking about things that have been fixed is pointless.

 

ISE, is not the reason Home is going under there for it's also pointless to talk about.  But if it was then Sony should have fixed it long time ago.

***********************************
Folding@home Team #118000
***********************************
GAPHome

             

               General

Message 40 of 129 (385 Views)
0 Likes