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Ghost of Sparta
Registered: 11/12/2010
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013
Here we go. Pages of specualtion from 'pros' now. None of this is new. We have had developers leave for YEARS now. Like since 2010 Home hasnt been profitable. Big video game companies left, small companies left, spaces were removed, some IPs were left to rot on the servers and some completely pulled (Diesel, Red Bull, UFC, etc.)

Heavy Water has been gone for months it was apparent they abandoned their projects as did many of our other devs along the way. Just because content is in the stores doesnt mean theyre still here supporting.

Look at all of you with your mall hacks and ISE flaunting it in the face of management and the dvelopers who worked hard to bring you te content that you just steal via hacks. Look at all of you badmouthing the devs that DO come here and try to listen to our suggestions and make us new experiences. Look at all of you who run off any new person that comes to these forums. You did this. You put us here. You helped destroy Home. It shouldnt be new news it shouldnt even be a new topic.

If you dont support the devs, they will leave, and when they leave you will complain theyre gone. HOME ISNT VERY PROFITABLE it never has been. Sony as a pusher man charges very high to let you run content in Home. Support what you like. Dont encourage others to hack steal or jailbreak content. I will get flamed for this, but I really dont care. If any of this is new to anybody here, then youre a completely blind fool. Open your eyes.
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Message 21 of 129 (544 Views)
Gaming Beast
Registered: 01/29/2011
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

D*mn straight.

Message 22 of 129 (526 Views)
Wastelander
Registered: 05/20/2011
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

I agree with Heavy Water. Another developer mentioned the same thing. That it was noticeable that for instance companies in America left Home one after each other, while European companies on the other hand flourish with Home.

 

I too think it's because of Sony's current marketing structure. Items that are created in Japan seem to be released there first, then in Europe, and maybe Hong Kong too at the same time, and only then in the US. So the US seem to get all items last.

 

In 2010, the US would get items right after Japan did just as in real life, but not anymore. A product that is released in Japan or Asia in real life, first goes to the States. After it is being sold on the American market for a while, it will be shipped to Europe.

 

I can say that by the time that same product is being sold on the European market, the price of that product can be, it differs with each product, 30, 40, to even up to 50% higher! That's because the EU is the third market, and thus it has to pay the taxes among other fees of the first two markets also.

 

I remember somewhere in 2011 or 2012, the taxes that you had to pay with the purchase of an item were reduced to $0.00. Thus from then on someone else had to pay for all taxes, as I'm sure it wasn't the case that taxes didn't need to be paid anymore. You can be sure those taxes are higher today then they were then.  

 

If this kind of a structure also implies for Home, it could be one reason why Sony asks such a high price of the developers. It's because the US Home is a lot more expensive for Sony to pay than the EU, or Japanese Homes are. In other words, US Home is non-constructive.

 

A developer's estimated view of Home sales were like this:

 

NA = 50%

EU = 30%

Japan = 15%

Asia = 5%

 

I have to say from what I've seen with my own eyes, that those numbers fairly coincide with the amount of players in Home when you place a zero behind them, and without a percentage. So that is fairly all the sale there is.

 

But frankly, what I think the biggest issue at hand at the moment is Sony's inability, (or unwillingness), to communicate with it's costumers, developers, and other third parties.

 

Developers are slowly but surely starting to communicate with the community which is a good thing, but what really must happen is that Sony Computer Entertainment Japan, (the headquarters), must communicate with the community, and it's other regional departments.

 

Developers mentioned that they found it questionable if even for instance, Sony Computer Entertainment America knows what is going on. Communication is the very one thing that's at fault at the moment, if you ask me. 

 

  

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Wastelander
Registered: 08/08/2012
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

smokingpistol wrote:
Here we go. Pages of specualtion from 'pros' now. None of this is new. We have had developers leave for YEARS now. Like since 2010 Home hasnt been profitable. Big video game companies left, small companies left, spaces were removed, some IPs were left to rot on the servers and some completely pulled (Diesel, Red Bull, UFC, etc.)

Heavy Water has been gone for months it was apparent they abandoned their projects as did many of our other devs along the way. Just because content is in the stores doesnt mean theyre still here supporting.

Look at all of you with your mall hacks and ISE flaunting it in the face of management and the dvelopers who worked hard to bring you te content that you just steal via hacks. Look at all of you badmouthing the devs that DO come here and try to listen to our suggestions and make us new experiences. Look at all of you who run off any new person that comes to these forums. You did this. You put us here. You helped destroy Home. It shouldnt be new news it shouldnt even be a new topic.

If you dont support the devs, they will leave, and when they leave you will complain theyre gone. HOME ISNT VERY PROFITABLE it never has been. Sony as a pusher man charges very high to let you run content in Home. Support what you like. Dont encourage others to hack steal or jailbreak content. I will get flamed for this, but I really dont care. If any of this is new to anybody here, then youre a completely blind fool. Open your eyes.

what items are people stealing? rewards or purchase items?

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Message 24 of 129 (488 Views)
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Ghost of Sparta
Registered: 05/27/2009
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

Legendary_Vicki wrote:

Does this mean Heavy Water have actually left Home now then, or what?


No, but they seems to have problems now...They don't have enought money to keep creating Home content.

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Message 25 of 129 (480 Views)
Lombax Warrior
Registered: 07/21/2012
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148 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

smokingpistol wrote:
Here we go. Pages of specualtion from 'pros' now. None of this is new. We have had developers leave for YEARS now. Like since 2010 Home hasnt been profitable. Big video game companies left, small companies left, spaces were removed, some IPs were left to rot on the servers and some completely pulled (Diesel, Red Bull, UFC, etc.)

Heavy Water has been gone for months it was apparent they abandoned their projects as did many of our other devs along the way. Just because content is in the stores doesnt mean theyre still here supporting.

Look at all of you with your mall hacks and ISE flaunting it in the face of management and the dvelopers who worked hard to bring you te content that you just steal via hacks. Look at all of you badmouthing the devs that DO come here and try to listen to our suggestions and make us new experiences. Look at all of you who run off any new person that comes to these forums. You did this. You put us here. You helped destroy Home. It shouldnt be new news it shouldnt even be a new topic.

If you dont support the devs, they will leave, and when they leave you will complain theyre gone. HOME ISNT VERY PROFITABLE it never has been. Sony as a pusher man charges very high to let you run content in Home. Support what you like. Dont encourage others to hack steal or jailbreak content. I will get flamed for this, but I really dont care. If any of this is new to anybody here, then youre a completely blind fool. Open your eyes.
The beverage is on me!
  VERY WELL SAID!

 

Message 26 of 129 (449 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 02/20/2008
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

Fly_Mixed_Papi_ wrote:

I made some posts to Heavy Water and they really aren't interested in Home because they can't make enough money to support themselves. Now, this could be from a number of things:

 

1. Not enough users who spend money in Home

2. Time consuming development process for PS3 hardware

3. Sonny's percentage is TOO LARGE A CUT for developers to sustain themselves and their companies

4. No support from Sony for developers (holding back spaces because of "O&A" concerns)

 

Here is the post the response I received from Heavy Water:

 

"Heavy Water Sadly, there is no money in Home to support a full studio and it fluctuates quite a bit... We will do what we can but its not that easy and we would like to see users create their own worlds,, hence, AGF!"

 

Heavy Water is promoting their new product due out soon. What do you guys think about Sony & Home and how it's treated? Why is Home not promoted like it should be? If a company can't make a profit, then why would they even bother? I guess this is WHY we see new items for sale update after update, the companies have to make money and Home isn't allowing that!

 

Sony, you HAVE TO EITHER make your percentage LOWER and/or not CHARGE developers to obtain rights to MAKE ITEMS FOR HOME! Your business sense is flawed in this department. Lower your percentage and DO NOT CHARGE Home developers for the SDK! You already charge and arm & a leg for the developer hardware, do you REALLY NEED TO CHARGE FOR A SDK as well?? So many things Sony has screwed up on with Home is ridiculous. To actually see a developer LEAVE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE MONEY should let SONY KNOW their business tactics are flawed and should adjust to create a SUCCESSFUL PRODUCT!

 

Honestly, if the SDK was free and the ps3 development hardware was cheaper, we could see TONS of items, spaces, apartments, etc in Home. I understand Sony is a business to make a profit, but if your product is TOO EXPENSIVE for a company to develop for, why would they even chance it? Why would you make developing a virtual item so expensive and time consuming? Sony, do you realize the lost potentianl in the Home app? Have you even bothered to look at other virtual worlsds and how the operate? They make a PROFIT! As one of the, if NOT THE LARGEST electronics manufactures in the world, do you not do your homework? Sony, do you realize the money pit you are ignoring because of your business tactics? WAKE UP and see Home can be a HUGE money maker if you STOP IGNORING IT!

 

What do the Home users think?


"Sony, you HAVE TO EITHER make your percentage LOWER and/or not CHARGE developers to obtain rights to MAKE ITEMS FOR HOME! "

 

One of life lessons that I try to tech everyone is...  "You always have to look at both sides to every story".  You did something that many of us should have long time ago and talked to "Heavy Water" but did you take the time to talk to Sony?  Not that they would ever answer you.  But...  Is it at all possable that Home is not the cash cow that many of the Fanboys/girls think it is?  If it's not a cash cow do you also think that might be big part of the reason why Home will most likely not make it onto the PS4?

***********************************
Folding@home Team #118000
***********************************
GAPHome

             

               General

Message 27 of 129 (445 Views)
Treasure Hunter
Registered: 03/12/2007
Online
4495 posts
 

Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

People blaming Mall Hacks and ISE have no clue what they are talking about.  In fact, Mall Hacks allow people to SPEND money on items that are not currently available in the stores.

 

ISE allows people to get non purchasable items, and yes, while "some" (very very few) of those items would not be possible to get without some kind of purchase, these are rare examples.  Instead, what I suspect ISE has done is brought back a lot of users that gave up on Home, or even brought new users into Home with the lore of getting a bunch of free items right of the bat... And once they start using Home again or for the first time, they will find MANY of the items that are really nice they have to buy, and may in fact do so - which is also why we never hear from any of the developers complaining about ISE.  Interesting huh?

 

I am sure there are MANY reasons Home is failing, Mall hacks and ISE are not the problem, if anything I suspect they have breathed a little bit of new life into Home by bringing in users that would otherwise not care at all about Home, and like a drug dealer who gives away free 'stuff' at the start, once hooked they start spending on items that are only available from the stores.

 

If you want to know why Home is losing customers, here are some reasonable explanations:

 

  • Far too many technical errors causing disconnects and even system freezing directly related to Home.
  • Numerous problems with spaces and content.
  • Numerous problems with item management.
  • Numerous problems with organization and navigation.
  • Numerous problems with shopping.
  • Very poor Customer Relations & Communication
  • Prices have gotten far too high.  When a hot tub costs more than a PSN game, its a huge red flag.
  • Almost no promotional support, even from Sony.

 

What Home needs is more users, it really is as simple as that, and luring in new users with ISE isn't nearly enough.  

 

For years we have been told that Home has/had "millions of users" which any reasonable person new was terribly misleading.  That said, Home certainly has the potential to attract millions of users, but not when the company that manages it is doing such a terrible job addressing issues with the service, communicating with their customers, and refuses to promote it, outside a weekly blog posts that likely few even read any more that don't already use the service, and gets fewer comments from month to month.

 

However the problem now is that even with a significant promotional campaign, Sony has also allowed the quality of the service to deteriorate to such a sad state of affairs, one only has to browse through the support forum to see just how bad it has gotten compared to just a couple years ago.

 

While it is perfectly understandable that long time users will stop using a service or MMO game as time goes by due to many outside influences, but what we often see in the case of Home is the driving influence of people leaving Home are inside influences, specifically the many problems with Home that make using the service an unnecessary burden.

 

The reasons spaces like Sodium are almost entirely empty of users is that longtime users have already moved on to newer spaces.  If Home had a healthy revolving user base, there would always be new users to keep these older spaces full... But they aren't.

 

As the user base dies out, developers are forced to raise prices... But raising prices also help drive users away... So it's an unsustainable strategy that will just cause Home to die off even quicker and force more devs to leave.

 

This is why so many see that unless things change, Home will die out much sooner than any of us would like it to.

Sony's PlayStation Home updated mission statement...


"Like it never happened"


- Stand for something better than mediocrity and don't disguise it as adequate, when clearly it is far from that to anyone willing to be objective and unbiased. -

Message 28 of 129 (435 Views)
Limit Breaker
Registered: 08/15/2007
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

Jul 23, 2013

Real good team at Heavy Water. They have worked on a lot more than items for Home. They are old school Home developers who have had their hands on a lot of great things. They developed a ''companion'' before we ever even heard of companions. You have to respect H2o for years and years of supporting Home and the things we didn't even know they worked on.   

 

 Devs come and go. bigyama was here very briefly after dropping some futuristic cowboy/girl outfits and now?  Devs either stay and play or they move on. This is the way of things. consumers can only buy what we want. Advertising cost be cursed, we could of used more. Word of mouth and social media? Home users have done that. Home media sites and Youtube video's galore? Yes, that was us also. makes me sick to my stomach to not get the support of the OTHER Sony supporters and you only have to look at the Sony blog outside of the Home blog to know what I am talking about.  Home always sat as a Sony orphan not wanted by the rest of the Sony gaming blogging world because?

 

Big brother was right there watching us and we couldn't even get a shout out... After all these years..

HomeStationMagazine
Message 29 of 129 (430 Views)
Lombax Warrior
Registered: 07/21/2012
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Re: Reality Check: some Home developers don't make enough money

[ Edited ]
Jul 23, 2013

D-Nitrate wrote:

People blaming Mall Hacks and ISE have no clue what they are talking about.  In fact, Mall Hacks allow people to SPEND money on items that are not currently available in the stores.

 

ISE allows people to get non purchasable items, and yes, while "some" (very very few) of those items would not be possible to get without some kind of purchase, these are rare examples.  Instead, what I suspect ISE has done is brought back a lot of users that gave up on Home, or even brought new users into Home with the lore of getting a bunch of free items right of the bat... And once they start using Home again or for the first time, they will find MANY of the items that are really nice they have to buy, and may in fact do so - which is also why we never hear from any of the developers complaining about ISE.  Interesting huh?

 

I am sure there are MANY reasons Home is failing, Mall hacks and ISE are not the problem, if anything I suspect they have breathed a little bit of new life into Home by bringing in users that would otherwise not care at all about Home, and like a drug dealer who gives away free 'stuff' at the start, once hooked they start spending on items that are only available from the stores.

 

If you want to know why Home is losing customers, here are some reasonable explanations:

 

  • Far too many technical errors causing disconnects and even system freezing directly related to Home.
  • Numerous problems with spaces and content.
  • Numerous problems with item management.
  • Numerous problems with organization and navigation.
  • Numerous problems with shopping.
  • Very poor Customer Relations & Communication
  • Prices have gotten far too high.  When a hot tub costs more than a PSN game, its a huge red flag.
  • Almost no promotional support, even from Sony.

 

What Home needs is more users, it really is as simple as that, and luring in new users with ISE isn't nearly enough.  

 

For years we have been told that Home has/had "millions of users" which any reasonable person new was terribly misleading.  That said, Home certainly has the potential to attract millions of users, but not when the company that manages it is doing such a terrible job addressing issues with the service, communicating with their customers, and refuses to promote it, outside a weekly blog posts that likely few even read any more that don't already use the service, and gets fewer comments from month to month.

 

However the problem now is that even with a significant promotional campaign, Sony has also allowed the quality of the service to deteriorate to such a sad state of affairs, one only has to browse through the support forum to see just how bad it has gotten compared to just a couple years ago.

 

While it is perfectly understandable that long time users will stop using a service or MMO game as time goes by due to many outside influences, but what we often see in the case of Home is the driving influence of people leaving Home are inside influences, specifically the many problems with Home that make using the service an unnecessary burden.

 

The reasons spaces like Sodium are almost entirely empty of users is that longtime users have already moved on to newer spaces.  If Home had a healthy revolving user base, there would always be new users to keep these older spaces full... But they aren't.

 

As the user base dies out, developers are forced to raise prices... But raising prices also help drive users away... So it's an unsustainable strategy that will just cause Home to die off even quicker and force more devs to leave.

 

This is why so many see that unless things change, Home will die out much sooner than any of us would like it to.


 Ha ha!

 

We already knew D, but now, you just confirmed! Smiley Wink

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