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Feb 24 2014
By: Phillyblunz Umbrella Scientist 12347 posts
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PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

13 replies 559 views Edited Feb 24, 2014

I been let down recently by the lack of response to gamers calls for feature updates on the PS4.

 

This has led me to start looking into building a PC so i canplay Witcher 3 when it comes out.

 

A mojor product that has caught my eye is the AMD A10-7850k APU.  Called Kavari.

 

This $200 chip is a CPU and GPU on one die, uses 95W total, and can play BF4 at 1080p low settings or 720p high settings.

 

This is very impressive and whats more the chip can be paired with a dedicated GPU to highly increase framerates.

 

The more I learned about this new chip the more I realised how similar to the PS4/Xbone APU it is.

 

But the real kicker was howmuch better the xbone and PS4 chips were in comparison.

 

The Kavari chip has a 4 core CPU and 8 core GPU, and supports up to 2133MHz RAM, with OC to 2400MHz fairly easily.

This chip has 512 shaders.

 

The Xbone and PS4 chips have 8 core cpus, and 12 and 16 core GPU's respectively.

They run ddr3 and gddr5 ram respectively.  

Xbone Has 700+ shaders.  PS4 has 1100+ shaders.

 

This really was eye opening for me as the chips in the new consoles, even the xbone would be a casual PC gamers dream come true.  Especially when you consider all the advantages an APU gives over a dedicated CPU + dedicated GPU.

 

From all the reviews of the Kaveri chip it has been shown how RAM speed directly relates to frames per second in games up to the point where you reach a bootle neck.  For most tests the Kaveri started showing signs of this around 2133MHz, but some benchs still showed an advantage with the faster ram.

For this reason it seems like Sony really knew what they were doing when they chose 8GB of GDDR5 for the PS4 APU.

Combine this with the 50% more sharders, or 100% more shaders compared to the Kaveri and you can start to see something great through the fog.

 

The largest advantages are still to come though, as the PS4 and Xbone apparently support HSA and HUMA, which among other things will lead to large advances in performance as the software cathes up to this new hardware.

 

I have pretty much decided at this point to now wait until next year to see what the next gen of consumer APU's bring to the table and if they can get close to what the PS4 APU, or even the bone APU is capable of it will basically be the go to "gamer on a budget" chip from this day forward.  (If they provide at least 6 CPU cores and 12 GPU cores, with soldered on 8GB GDDR5 or maybe some amount of ddr4 RAM that is.)

 

I know my 3yr old laptop has a low end A4 APU in it, and I can play games like mercenaries 2 in 1080p with it at good frame rates.  This new KAveri chip is many times better then this, the bone APu is about 50% better then this, and the PS4 APU is 200% better then the Kaveri chip (Dues to double ram speed and double the shaders)

 

I just find it funny how people were talking like the PS4 was some old PC parts tossed together from 5 years ago, when relly it is cutting edge technology which we will be seeing performance gains being squeezed out over time just like with the PS3's cell. (Although this time we wont see as many lame game devs making games that barely run)

It really is incredible how many PC enthusiasts in forums talk with such high praise of the PS4 APU, and to a lesser extent the bone APU, and funny how strong this new AMD APU seems until you compare it to the PS4 APU.

 

 

So now I have a full year to wait, in that time what is more liekly to happen first :

 

-PS4 gets fixed to include the features of the PS3+?

 

-AMD releases a chip which can nearly equal the power of the PS4 APU?

 

-PS4 gets a price drop?

 

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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Lombax Warrior
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014

They've all ready said they'll patch the PS4 to include several feature's that are currently missing. The Xbone is currently going through the same thing.

 

And the PC chips you're talking about won't run current gamings for long unless you include a decent GPU with it. I woudn't expect a 8 core APU anytime soon either at least not at a sub $200 price like the others.

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Fender Bender
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014

Why would you build a PC for the Witcher 3 when that game is coming out on PS4 also?

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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014

Solid---Steak wrote:

Why would you build a PC for the Witcher 3 when that game is coming out on PS4 also?


Spite for the PS4 not being what I want.

 

I have pretty much zero power to influence Sony besides simply not supporting them.

 

I can only hope some others out their have voted with their wallets as well to tell Sony we want the PS4 at a bare minimum to do the things the PS3 can.  I will not buy a PS4 at the current price and feature set.

 

I was hoping by now an official statement from Sony on these items would have been made and we would have a type of road map for what PS4 will be.  To date the record sales numbers are telling Sony "dont worry the PS4 is "good Enough as is".

 

For this reason I am starting to doubt Sony will ever implement the items I value as much or more from my PS3 as gaming.

 

 

But the more I look at the PC, the better the PS4 starts to look.  How cool would it be if i could buy a PS4, take out the processor and install in into a real PC!?!?

 

I am a gamer scorned, I was so hyped for the PS4 and then it came out and was really meh in all but gaming ability, but rumors were flying around about patching in all the last gen features, then the world went silent as Sony realised the truth, to my dismay.

 

 

I would love a gaming PC as powerful as the PS4, using APU tech to futureproof it.  Seems I can only have one way or the other now, so I really hope the PS4 can become a worthy successor to the PS3 before I die.

(Ideally before withcer 3 comes out)

Then I wont have to build this pc.

 

I wish my voice was louder to Sony, but all you guys are shouting way too loud (What now 5.5 million sold)for my squeaky wheels to ever see new grease.

 

But still I ask.

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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Fender Bender
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014

What features are you hoping that Sony implements?

 

I've never used my PS3 and PS4 for anything other than games and Netflix, so I don't really see a problem.

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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014

Solid---Steak wrote:

What features are you hoping that Sony implements?

 

I've never used my PS3 and PS4 for anything other than games and Netflix, so I don't really see a problem.


 

I bought a PS1 for games, but fell in love with the CD playing abilities and visualizer.

 

I bought a PS2 for games, but loved it even more for the DVD playing abilities.

 

I bought a PS3 because it was the only way I could afford a Bluray player and catch up to the jones'.  I loved how it brought me so far ahead with a single purchase.  I could see the future and it was beautiful.  I also bought it for the sixaxis and HD games of course.  It was all good.  What made me fall in love with the PS3 is the media features, 3D Bluray anyone? ripping cd's even upsampling, streaming content through my entire house wirelessly, turn any tv into a smart tv, home movies and family pictures never looked so good or were laid out better or was dont more easily with the built in camera card readers, letting me store any of my content right on the HDD was one of the best things too, it got most of its use playing music and games though.

 

For some dumb reason I expected the next device in the line up would follow a similar path and at least support current technology in the same fashion the PS3 did at launch. (PS3 played current Blurays standards at launch(2D), when 3D Bluray came out it supported them well before most other players).  Yet Ps4 launches and does not play the current Blurays standards?

 

PS3 was a steal of a deal as it cost less then pretty much any bluray player at the time, while being more capable then any of them for years.

Where can PS4 say the same?  In any area at all?  

 

I still have my PS3 and it still has all these features.  If I built a PC it would have all these features.

What does a PS4 add to the equation?

 

If it gets at minimum the ability to play "MY" music and 3D blurays and maybe a price drop, all will be forgiven.  (Or all features at the same price.)

 

 

They had a real good thing going for a few generations though, too bad they need money so bad now Smiley Sad

 

Next gen maybe back on track?

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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Gaming Beast
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 24, 2014
At this point for PCs APUs aren't worth the money right now you would be better off with a $120 GPU + a $80 CPU then with an APU.
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Big Daddy
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 25, 2014

I have yet to ever see an integrated GPU perform anywhere, remotely well, next to a budget GPU that you can pick up for an extra $120.

I think you're exaggerating the new Kaveri chipset..... I've seen many benchmarks on it..... Unless you want to build a $300 PC, and run Witcher 3 on LOW settings, at a resolution BELOW 1280x720..... you're frame rates are going to be in the SINGLE digits, even with OC'd settings to give you a 2000+Mhz memory clock.

I've seen as little as a 5% increase with memory overclocks with 1600Mhz vs 2133 or 2400Mhz RAM speeds. We're talking picking up MAYBE between 3-5 frames per second on an APU.


I've yet to see an APU run Battlefield 4 and have it run faster, on any setting configuration, than maybe 15fps.

 

APU's are cool.... but they are underutilized and right now, only work well enough for a very casual home PC user, or an enterprise environment where you'r usually using simple text programs like Word, Excel etc etc.....

Integrated chipsets, are VERY limited in their scope.

The PS4 and Xbone APU were co-developed STRICTLY with gaming in mind, hence why Sony even says its a custom tailored processor.
No other generally released chipset from AMD or Intel will be in direct competition with the APU in the PS4 and Xbone. EVER. PC technology advances too fast for that to ever happen, especially with the specs of the GPU side (which are closer to matching a 7700series AMD card or bargain level 600series Nvidia card)

The one thing that AMD's APU's have going for them.....is that they are FREAKING FAST compared to Intel's processors and usually they are HALF the price with equal performance. Thats what AMD has ALWAYS been about.... VALUE.

 

I don't know why you're waiting on "official word from Sony" about the lack of certain features that you're looking for in the PS4 as well as many others CONTINUE to clamor for.
Sony has already publicly commented on it.

And its in ANY companies best interest, especially Sony's (which they have said many times before) and you can see examples of from simply extrapolating their comments, that they would rather not give ANY sort of time line on ANY future updates to come.
Why? Because it means that they HAVE to devote more resources to projects, and pushing a rushed product out to market is NOT what people want to happen..... Battlefield 4 rings a bell.


So say that Sony DOES mention, DLNA/MP3/CD/3D movie support is coming out next month...... thats a pretty short time frame to have people code, compile, test and do so over and over to make sure the update is solid and doesn't pose any security threat or something that causes a fatal console error.
What happens now that the update bricks everyone's console? Well... Sony has to eat their profits and have to honor the warranties for every broken PS4... this means people are upset that their PS4's are bricked, and now they're doubly upset at Sony for releasing a rushed product that broke consoles.
Are you starting to see the big picture now?

The issue is not JUST about the PS4, not because PlayStation and SCEI are responsible.... but because Sony as a whole, is laying people off, getting rid of needless divisions (like Vaio), simply restructuring.  Sony is an octopus right now, with many arms doing many different things, most of them doing things that are being questioned by the people with money.... the investors and banks who entrust Sony to deliver a product.

Just because SCEI and PlayStation are about delivering games..... doesn't mean they're not under pressure to do a good job.

 

You can call me a fanboy, or apologist all you want.... but I at least have a good grasp of the entire situation that Sony is in right now.
I like to call people Idiots in matters like this (which tends to be in nearly every thread that has been polluting this forums for the better part of 2 years), because its a fact... they are IDIOTS. The definition of an idiot is a person who is stupid, which Stupid is defined as a person who lacks common sense and is synonymous with the word ignorant, meaning one who does not know. And i just like to call people a troll, since it conveniently rolls all the negatives and definitions of those who don't know and are caustic to a well thought out argument and discussion.

I read the news several times a day - its one of those things that you just end up doing when you become an adult out of instinct.
Once you do this and becomes habit.... then you'll start saying to yourself "So thats why things are going slow".

Yes, Sony Computer Entertainment and PlayStation, are doing very well for themselves.... setting a record (selling over 1million consoles in a weekend), exceeding their goals (selling MORE than 5million units by March) and many of their upcoming games getting rave reviews and even their existing games doing so.... There is A LOT to be happy about if you're an employee at SCE.

 

All I am saying, and have BEEN saying.... is be patient. Which I commend you for doing. At least you're willing to wait a year for more games to come out, and for the PS4 to get a few more firmware updates to enable support for things you want to have in YOUR home entertainment device.

 

 


You SHOULD, build a PC tho. Because there are simply some games, like Witcher 3, that are best played on PC.

And I can honestly tell you, that RIGHT NOW, for $600 you can build a PC that will run ANY GAME you throw at it, with a very good frame rate for the next 2-3 year so you can save up and built an "Alpha" level rig.

 

You can do just fine with an AMD A8 or A10 series CPU, or Intel i5, an Nvidia GTX650Ti, and 8GB of 2133Mhz RAM on a budget motherboard, with an 800watt power supply.
I'm sure you already have a PC, which you can recycle your hdd, case, dvd drive, monitor and KB/M so those shouldn't be an extra cost to have to worry about.
Other than that, all you'd need is a phillips screw driver in a few sizes, some time and you're golden.

 

Before my "Alpha" CAD/Gaming rig, I was running on a Pentium 4@3Ghz with 4GB RAM and a 120GB hdd.... yea, BEFORE multi-core processors came out and when SSD's were just a pipe dream.
I saved up my money, did my homework.... and now my current desktop will serve me well for the next 5 years without worrying about "will it run this game"... or unless a new GPU comes out with more CUDA cores than the new Titan Black.

Furiously Chaosing
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Sackboy
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 25, 2014

There isn't a day that goes by when I am NOT impressed by my PS4. From the moment I saw the pictures on the internet to the day I saw display pieces in stores to the day I got mine in the mail (Dec 20th-ish) I was blown away by the compactness of the thing. I was impressed by how small it was. It was smaller than the PS3 and significantly smaller than the Xbox One and more powerful than both. Even the internals of the PS4 seemed so much more elegant and meticulously placed, including the ICs, chips and even the cooling fan, while the Xbox was a bit haphazard and dense and somewhat messy. I couldn't help but be impressed by its smaller stature and while I couldn't appreciate it so much from pictures on the internet, when I saw with my own eyes I instantly fell in love with it. And then the design was also breath-taking. Again, it was a case of love at first sight when I saw it myself. While it seemed unassuming on the internet in pictures, at close angles it looked great. However the single most awesome part was the back grill. It just looked so bad-**bleep**! It honestly looked somewhat like the exhausts of some fighter jets!

 

And to think that this bad boy has 8 gigs of GDDR5 RAM, the most expensive kind there is, and such amazing internals, and at such a price point and so quiet and unassuming - just a piece of art from Sony. Sony may be failing with its PC and TV divisions, they may have stagnated in those areas in terms of innovation and product quality, but this PS4, it oozes premium quality and meticulously handcrafted engineering from all corners. Marvelous piece of art.

 

Kudos to the Sony PlayStation team!

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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: PS4 tech as advanced as PS3 was?

Feb 25, 2014

gR3yGh051 wrote:



I think you're exaggerating the new Kaveri chipset..... I've seen many benchmarks on it..... Unless you want to build a $300 PC, and run Witcher 3 on LOW settings, at a resolution BELOW 1280x720..... you're frame rates are going to be in the SINGLE digits, even with OC'd settings to give you a 2000+Mhz memory clock.

Chip supports 2133MHz RAM, oc only above that, most go for 2400MHz.

 


I've yet to see an APU run Battlefield 4 and have it run faster, on any setting configuration, than maybe 15fps.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPdLn_YGEaY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

APU's are cool.... but they are underutilized and right now, only work well enough for a very casual home PC user, or an enterprise environment where you'r usually using simple text programs like Word, Excel etc etc.....

Actually the CPU portion of the APU is fairly weak, many I3 processors are faster.  For word/excell only go intel.

Integrated chipsets, are VERY limited in their scope.  

Actually they are very versatile on their own, and can do dual graphics wth certain GPU's for a nice performance boost.

They can do all the processor stuff, but not as well as Intel, but can defeat any intel IGPU fairly easily.

Limitations only really factor in if you decide to use a very high end GPU where you will likely see CPU bottlenecking.

The PS4 and Xbone APU were co-developed STRICTLY with gaming in mind, hence why Sony even says its a custom tailored processor.
No other generally released chipset from AMD or Intel will be in direct competition with the APU in the PS4 and Xbone. EVER. PC technology advances too fast for that to ever happen, especially with the specs of the GPU side (which are closer to matching a 7700series AMD card or bargain level 600series Nvidia card)

The only thing preventing an AMD APU like what is in the PS4 would be if they had a contractual agreement to not for a certain number of years to allow the current gen consoles to have a leg up on traditional dedicated CPU/GPU setups.

AMD's goal for years has been single chip gaming, this chip essentially does that at low settings, next year maybe 1080p at medium?

The one thing that AMD's APU's have going for them.....is that they are FREAKING FAST compared to Intel's processors and usually they are HALF the price with equal performance. Thats what AMD has ALWAYS been about.... VALUE.

Nope, they are a lot slower then most Intel processors, at least until HSA/HUMA take off.  With HSA/HUMA this APU is suppossed to be more then twice as fast as a I7-4770K!  But only for HSA/HUMA projects.  In general it will still be much slower.

 

I don't know why you're waiting on "official word from Sony" about the lack of certain features that you're looking for in the PS4 as well as many others CONTINUE to clamor for.
Sony has already publicly commented on it.

Link?  Not the tweet that was made in 2013 about lookin into it.

And its in ANY companies best interest, especially Sony's (which they have said many times before) and you can see examples of from simply extrapolating their comments, that they would rather not give ANY sort of time line on ANY future updates to come.
Why? Because it means that they HAVE to devote more resources to projects, and pushing a rushed product out to market is NOT what people want to happen..... Battlefield 4 rings a bell.

Timeline less important then statement of intent.


So say that Sony DOES mention, DLNA/MP3/CD/3D movie support is coming out next month...... thats a pretty short time frame to have people code, compile, test and do so over and over to make sure the update is solid and doesn't pose any security threat or something that causes a fatal console error.
What happens now that the update bricks everyone's console? Well... Sony has to eat their profits and have to honor the warranties for every broken PS4... this means people are upset that their PS4's are bricked, and now they're doubly upset at Sony for releasing a rushed product that broke consoles.
Are you starting to see the big picture now?

Nope.  This makes no sense, why would they make a patch to brick all the consoles?  Maybe you think they dont know what they are doing?  In this same sense no patch will ever come again because it will take too long, detract from other projects, and be rushed out the door....  Just saying they will do something doesnt mean it has to be today, or any time before its ready.  Dont you think they have a QA department?  I think they do.



You SHOULD, build a PC tho. Because there are simply some games, like Witcher 3, that are best played on PC.

And I can honestly tell you, that RIGHT NOW, for $600 you can build a PC that will run ANY GAME you throw at it, with a very good frame rate for the next 2-3 year so you can save up and built an "Alpha" level rig.

Its just the fact that the consoles use APU's, and APU's have unlocked power.  Together this means all game developers will be learning to unlock this power over time.  An APU system will(should) get better in the next few years, Mantle, MHSA, HUMA all bring great performance improvements.  BF4 getting 1080p low 30FPS without mantle is exciting, with mantle they expect upwards of  a 20% boost.  Where as a DCPU/DGPU setup will simply degrade over time as they always have.  If this a10 chip was a bit faster as a cpu I would buy it today.

 

You can do just fine with an AMD A8 or A10 series CPU, or Intel i5, an Nvidia GTX650Ti, and 8GB of 2133Mhz RAM on a budget motherboard, with an 800watt power supply.
I'm sure you already have a PC, which you can recycle your hdd, case, dvd drive, monitor and KB/M so those shouldn't be an extra cost to have to worry about.
Other than that, all you'd need is a phillips screw driver in a few sizes, some time and you're golden.

 Ok I am pretty sure all AMD A10 and A8 processors are APU's.  Correct me if I'm worng here?   I have been lookin at AMD FX series CPU's but they use an old socket AM3+ which I am worried will be discontinued before the new FM2+ that is used by the AMD APU's. (Older ones use FM2, new ones use FM2+, but old APU's still work in the new sockets)

So I was hoping by getting an FM2+ board I would e able to upgrade within the APU line for a few years, but this requires further advancement in the APU line up, which you seem to dismiss.  I hope AMD doesnt dismiss it.

 

 

I do have a 60GB SSD I would use for the OS.  And tons of large mechanical drives.  I would prob use one or two as dedicated Cache drives to eliminate a lot of read/write cycles from my SSD.

 

And about the memory it seems Intel CPU's dont scale nearly as well with increased RAM speed as do these APU's.

For this reason it it obvious why Sony chose Gddr5 RAM for the PS4, these APU's cant get enough bandwidth with DDR3.

Anyways i had my hopes up, and still have a glimmer that with dual graphics this APU could suffice for awhile until either PS4 steps up or the next gen of APUs do.  I would love AMD to lay a road map for this tech for the next 2-3 yrs so i can feel confident in the purchase.


 

 

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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