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Treasure Hunter
Registered: 07/02/2009
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012

Aviral66 wrote:
If they don't put backwards compatibility back in then whats the point? PS3 slim is perfectly fine as is.

 It wont becuase some folk unfair play to much and they took allot stuff out that does that..It was good while it lasted, if youa have older model , then   save it dont sell it . play it from time to time and just get  new ps3  slim  with higher hdd storage.

 

 I understand what your saying but things have  changed from that, becuase of cost,  unfair play, &among many other reason. Ifeel they  can find a better way to do it  rather than neglect it.

 

 Maybe ps4 wil have a function and a library of ps2  & ps1 online  where you play older games for free or  a  boosted up  ps + members ship to do so.  They have  cloud now which is big player in this , better sercurity  , better online  interferance and these are very possible within sony  reach.

 

  Gamers are alwys are going to want to play older gamers..  thats how gaming is and  sony should be thinking about ways to make it  happen, in safe enviroment where  everyone can  enjoy and  amek small/meduim profit in the process.

Mcbuttz78

vp-psn legioniaree group.

Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future

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First Son
Registered: 09/27/2007
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012

KoRnKlOwN69 wrote:
everyone needs to read jeff_rigby's stuff I have been reading on neogaf for days now on this subject... he has enough info to write a book lol!

Agreed. Read more of his thoughts on this topic here.

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PIayStation MVP
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012

jeff_rigby wrote:

KoRnKlOwN69 wrote:

im not talking about rigby if u went to the link u would know.... his name is piteru


It's not me and is in line with my reasoning, no price drop except seen in bundles.  Either I'm correct and this refresh is  a complete redesign with attractive features like OS on SSD Flash (Faster loads and swaps), less power consumption,  Kinect like interface (Digitimes rumor), HDMI pass-thru (Echoes what's coming in the Xbox 361 from Xbox 720 powerpoint leak to support ATSC 2.0)  OR it has nothing to offer and can't be sold cheaper as the savings in the redesign is just shipping costs in a smaller 1 pound lighter PS3.  

 

If it's attractive, it will sell millions at the higher price, no need to reduce the price, it it's not  a total redesign then they can't reduce the price.  

 

As to OS upgrade, much of it will be targeted at ATSC 2.0 which may see slow adoption...so no rush to release.  But TGS is in Japan and we have a new president who is Japanese and announcing what I believe coming will be good for the stock price and cement the new Presidents position.  


Based on the leaked Microsoft document, I think the X361 was contingent on Microsoft launching its own pay TV service, which never happened due to issues getting agreements from content providers. I don't believe there will be any major revisions made to the X360 before the next gen comes out, if there was it probably would have been announced earlier....

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Wastelander
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012

good job on that site yuri 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

[ Edited ]
Sep 8, 2012

Logical_Dolphin wrote:

jeff_rigby wrote:

KoRnKlOwN69 wrote:

im not talking about rigby if u went to the link u would know.... his name is piteru


It's not me and is in line with my reasoning, no price drop except seen in bundles.  Either I'm correct and this refresh is  a complete redesign with attractive features like OS on SSD Flash (Faster loads and swaps), less power consumption,  Kinect like interface (Digitimes rumor), HDMI pass-thru (Echoes what's coming in the Xbox 361 from Xbox 720 powerpoint leak to support ATSC 2.0)  OR it has nothing to offer and can't be sold cheaper as the savings in the redesign is just shipping costs in a smaller 1 pound lighter PS3.  

 

If it's attractive, it will sell millions at the higher price, no need to reduce the price, it it's not  a total redesign then they can't reduce the price.  

 

As to OS upgrade, much of it will be targeted at ATSC 2.0 which may see slow adoption...so no rush to release.  But TGS is in Japan and we have a new president who is Japanese and announcing what I believe coming will be good for the stock price and cement the new Presidents position.  


Based on the leaked Microsoft document, I think the X361 was contingent on Microsoft launching its own pay TV service, which never happened due to issues getting agreements from content providers. I don't believe there will be any major revisions made to the X360 before the next gen comes out, if there was it probably would have been announced earlier....


HDMI pass-thru is needed if the Cable company does not support the Xbox or PS3.  IF there is support, for instance RVU, then HDMI pass-thru is not needed.  

 

I think there is a misunderstanding about what's coming.  See last paragraph and read the two links on Sony Media Fusion and ATSC 2.0.

 

1) A hardware refresh takes about 1.5+  years from start to release.  The Xbox 720 powerpoint date is 7/2010 so the design was in the pipeline when the document was written.  Once you get your head around the lead times necessary to release a console you look back from 1.5 to 2 years for news.  

2) There is a Linkedin Internet post for an IBM employee involved in an international project to design a Xbox 360 SoC @ 32nm.  A Xbox SoC should not be an International project!!!!!

 

3) IBM and GloFlo8 are producing a "Oban" SoC @32nm on SOI silicon for Microsoft, 10,000 wafers at about 200/wafer were taped out  Dec 2011.  By March GloFlo8 is also making the same SoC.  1st build takes 2 months then testing and next tapeout if there were no issues.  The goal is to increase the Yield with each batch.  

 

4) Reports are that Microsoft was assembling a finished  "Xbox 720" using the Oban chip in March.  This can not be the Xbox 720 as it will be 28nm AMD Fusion 2014 design as that is the first point that AMD makes 3rd party SoCs and have full HSA designs with a ARM processor for Trustzone DRM.  

 

ATSC 2.0 and DVB hbbTV are the XTV target mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint.  It starts beginning of 2013 with HEVC.

 

 For those of you who think the 4K stack (what is used to support 4K video/blu-ray players) is useless to you, this is what Sony is going to do next year with ATSC 2.0 and the hevc (h.265) 4K codec, 7 use cases with only the first two requiring a 4K TV. It's the Sony Media Fusion proposal listed in the Broadcasters Perspective on ATSC 2.0 

Both of the above should be viewed, lots of pictures and fairly easy to follow. This is the end game and the reason for the PS3 having Blu-ray, 1080P support and browser, it's the endgame and only realized in hindsight. Both Microsoft and Sony are preparing to Support this for 2013 so most of this should be in the PS3 and Xbox 360 by the end of the year. Blu-ray only because a blu-ray player has the ATSC 2.0 codec h.264 AVC, 1080P & 3-D support, Java (EU DVB hbbTV Apps standard) and browser for XHTML (US apps standard). In 2001, Blu-ray players were speculated as set top boxes to support ATSC 2.0; this is how long ago this was planned.

This is a 2010 Sony white paper that was presented to the US ATSC committee on what would become Sony Media fusion.  In 2008 the Vita GPU was designed/known to have OpenCL support.  HEVC was in the pipeline and OpenCL or GPU compute was envisioned as the processor used (HEVC requires a more powerful CPU). 

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PIayStation MVP
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012
Based on the Microsoft document the HDMI pass through feature seems to be intended for some sort of slingbox type device.

I don't know what RVU is, but I believe most cable providers are too overprotective to allow a separate device to interact with their cable boxes. Since Apple is apparently having problems with this with their TV project, I doubt that Microsoft or Sony would have any better luck...
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PlayStation MVP
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 8, 2012

jeff_rigby wrote:

HDMI pass-thru is needed if the Cable company does not support the Xbox or PS3.  IF there is support, for instance RVU, then HDMI pass-thru is not needed.  What is the purpose of HDMI-Passthrough? I am confused here

 

I think there is a misunderstanding about what's coming.  See last paragraph and read the two links on Sony Media Fusion and ATSC 2.0.

1) A hardware refresh takes about 1.5+  years from start to release.  The Xbox 720 powerpoint date is 7/2010 so the design was in the pipeline when the document was written.  Once you get your head around the lead times necessary to release a console you look back from 1.5 to 2 years for news.  

 

2) There is a Linkedin Internet post for an IBM employee involved in an international project to design a Xbox 360 SoC @ 32nm.  A Xbox SoC should not be an International project!!!!!

 

3) IBM and GloFlo8 are producing a "Oban" SoC @32nm on SOI silicon for Microsoft, 10,000 wafers at about 200/wafer were taped out  Dec 2011.  By March GloFlo8 is also making the same SoC.  1st build takes 2 months then testing and next tapeout if there were no issues.  The goal is to increase the Yield with each batch.  

 

4) Reports are that Microsoft was assembling a finished  "Xbox 720" using the Oban chip in March.  This can not be the Xbox 720 as it will be 28nm AMD Fusion 2014 design as that is the first point that AMD makes 3rd party SoCs and have full HSA designs with a ARM processor for Trustzone DRM.  

As far as these chips go, there was a report made recently that the 3 manufacturers MS is using to produce the processor for 720 is they have been having issues with yield. MS struck a deal with 3 manufacturers in order to get a good lead time on manufacturing/yield and be able to sort through any issues, but as the news was concerned MS took a risk is seemingly loosing out on that front if none of the manufacturers can sort the issue.

 

ATSC 2.0 and DVB hbbTV are the XTV target mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint.  It starts beginning of 2013 with HEVC.

For those of you who think the 4K stack (what is used to support 4K video/blu-ray players) is useless to you, this is what Sony is going to do next year with ATSC 2.0 and the hevc (h.265) 4K codec, 7 use cases with only the first two requiring a 4K TV. It's the Sony Media Fusion proposal listed in the Broadcasters Perspective on ATSC 2.0 

Both of the above should be viewed, lots of pictures and fairly easy to follow. This is the end game and the reason for the PS3 having Blu-ray, 1080P support and browser, it's the endgame and only realized in hindsight. Both Microsoft and Sony are preparing to Support this for 2013 so most of this should be in the PS3 and Xbox 360 by the end of the year. Blu-ray only because a blu-ray player has the ATSC 2.0 codec h.264 AVC, 1080P & 3-D support, Java (EU DVB hbbTV Apps standard) and browser for XHTML (US apps standard). In 2001, Blu-ray players were speculated as set top boxes to support ATSC 2.0; this is how long ago this was planned.

This is a 2010 Sony white paper that was presented to the US ATSC committee on what would become Sony Media fusion.  In 2008 the Vita GPU was designed/known to have OpenCL support.  HEVC was in the pipeline and OpenCL or GPU compute was envisioned as the processor used (HEVC requires a more powerful CPU). 


 

Cognitive Dissonance - The ability to understand multiple viewpoints even if they conflict with one another - and still use critical thinking, logical thought, and common sense to come to the realization that only ONE is the correct one and the others are wrong.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 9, 2012

Logical_Dolphin wrote:
Based on the Microsoft document the HDMI pass through feature seems to be intended for some sort of slingbox type device.

I don't know what RVU is, but I believe most cable providers are too overprotective to allow a separate device to interact with their cable boxes. Since Apple is apparently having problems with this with their TV project, I doubt that Microsoft or Sony would have any better luck...

RVU is supported by Verison and Direct TV for the PS3.  RVU is a DLNA server with DTCP-IP DRM (in the PS3 since 2010) that provides full access to a DVR box including menus that use HTML for the UI. Live view is also supported.  It's Remove View with UInterface.  With that a PS3 does not need HDMI pass-thru.  In the video stream are triggers and extended data to do a "Suite of special features".  Accessing a video conferencing program like Skype while watching TV is a typical use case for a Smart TV.  

 

ATSC 2.0 descriptions and example screen shots (includes game Page 27 & 28) Also see another onQ123 thread on a Sony patent about playing games during commercials.

 

XTV - ATSC 2.0 - DVB hbbTV  - Google TV - Smart TV are all part of  X-tended TV.  It's also part of Xfinity (Comcast).  You really need to look at the ATSC 2.0 PDF.  A modern Smart TV can support  ATSC 2.0 but if you have an older TV you need a set top box that provides browser support and h.264 codec.  If Sony has their way you will need support for h.265 also.  Look at the Sony Media Fusion proposal PDF.    

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PIayStation MVP
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

Sep 9, 2012
I do know that Google TV can control a DirectTV STB without the use of a IR blaster, but that is it.

I also know that there was a project to make DirectTV compatible with Windows Media Center, but that project was canceled.

From what I have seen, there are too many different cable interface standards out there that would make integrating a separate interface (Smart TV, Google TV, Apple TV) too awkward to be attractive to most people...
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: PS3 Super Slim Rumors and Speculation

[ Edited ]
Sep 9, 2012

4) Reports are that Microsoft was assembling a finished  "Xbox 720" using the Oban chip in March.  This can not be the Xbox 720 as it will be 28nm AMD Fusion 2014 design as that is the first point that AMD makes 3rd party SoCs and have full HSA designs with a ARM processor for Trustzone DRM.  

As far as these chips go, there was a report made recently that the 3 manufacturers MS is using to produce the processor for 720 is they have been having issues with yield. MS struck a deal with 3 manufacturers in order to get a good lead time on manufacturing/yield and be able to sort through any issues, but as the news was concerned MS took a risk is seemingly loosing out on that front if none of the manufacturers can sort the issue.

 

The 2014 design @ 28nm is when AMD said they would produce custom SoCs including third party IP.  A Game Console SoC is a custom SoC.  The SemiAccurate articles skip over the 32nm part, that makes the article an obvious distortion of facts.  There is no yield issue, a massive demand is projected for the Xbox 361 just like for Sony in the Digitimes rumor, 20 million sold the first year.  

 

HDMI pass-thru is needed if the Cable company does not support the Xbox or PS3.  IF there is support, for instance RVU, then HDMI pass-thru is not needed.  What is the purpose of HDMI-Passthrough? I am confused here

 

 

The HDMI video from the cable box goes into the Xbox 361 HDMI input port and out the HDMI output port to the TV.  The video going through the Xbox has ATSC 2.0 trigger data and extra content can be offered by overlaying the content over the TV video.  Extra content is either through Non-Realtime-Transmission or via the Internet. Example: Extra views of a football play, a  request for a video chat can be overlayed on the screen and a window opened to allow chat while the TV is still playing, extended information or cut scenes on a movie and much more.  Point is that the Xbox or PS3 or whatever has to always be on and intercepting the trigger data or request to chat from the internet  or a keyboard command from the user .  

 

With RVU the video stream is sent from a DVR cable box via DLNA with DTCP-IP DRM to the PS3 or Xbox and then displayed on the TV.  The PS3 is in the data path to the TV and can intercept the trigger data and overlay the video.  RVU also allows control over the DVR cable box. 

 

Sony is going to release a DVR box called NASNE that is a RVU box that additionally converts all incoming video to h.264 AVC for handhelds.  The SoC chipset in the NASNE can support cable cards but there is no information on the NASNE supporting this feature.  

 

Google TV in an external Blu-ray player or external set top box that has HDMI pass-thru.  HDMI pass-thru is not needed if using a Smart TV or Google TV as the interception of trigger data and overlay ability is built into the TV.  

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