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Grease Monkey
DragonIrons
Posts: 384
Registered: ‎11-12-2012

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

[ Edited ]

"the current PS3 console lacks the necessary HARDWARE to render PS3 graphics. So try as they might, it's just not PHYSICALLY possible."

 

huh? lol you mean it dont' have the hardware to render PS2 graphics right? :smileytongue:  Alot of that hardware (plus 2 usb ports and the memory card reader) is what they took out making the slim to make room for more airflow, AND cut costs.....

 

Rest of that post was pretty funny... like totally... you totally want totally to totally play totally your totally PS2 totally games? THEN TOTALLY BUY A PS2 somewhere.....  Stop whining like spoiled brats, it's been over and done with for how many years now? They took it outta the slim, deal with it. (sorry i copied you, had to it's funny)

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Fender Bender
fleinn
Posts: 4,131
Registered: ‎05-15-2009

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)


CaptainAlbator wrote:
From my understanding of computers, and emulator is not a "chip". Emulation is achieved through software. Try as they might, and despite how some believe it wouldn't have "taken much effort for Sony" to emulate PS2 playback, the current PS3 console lacks the necessary HARDWARE to render PS3 graphics. So try as they might, it's just not PHYSICALLY possible. 

 


No.. look. The early ps3s had a piece of software that used an actual physical ps2 chip to run the graphics and the logic. There was another variant with just the graphics chip. This is really an emulation package that runs some of the function calls on the cell-processor, and other function calls on the ps2 chip (or the emotion engine).

 

It looks like this: Allocate memory on the ps3, run compiled bytecode of different kinds on the ps3. Then when you get to the more complex calls, the function is called from the ps3, and executed on the ps2 chip. The result comes back to the ps3 as if it was run in the program logic running there.

 

But it was possible to actually run those functions on the cell-processor after all. So when you pull that package from the ps-store apart, what you have is an emulator -- a very good and brilliantly programmed emulator, that runs the ps2 instruction set, basically emulating the ps2 instruction set, not actually running just the byte-code -- with an iso-file in it(the ps2 disc).

 

I don't care what Sony calls it, it's a brilliant piece of software. Not just because it's clever, but because it lets you run the actual shaders in different resolutions, and you can render the layers with different anti-aliasing filtering -- to get the overlay and scores clear, without blurring the entire image.

 

So you get something very smooth, in higher resolution than the original, with perfect sync -- and you can easily output it on the ps3, to your hdmi-tv, etc. Instead of having to run a low-res scaled context on a ps2, or on the original ps3 with halfway hardware emulation.

 

In other words - obviously Sony hides this product and don't want to sell it. Because it's just too good, I guess, and too much like a very large amount of fans have asked for..

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PlayStation MVP
CaptainAlbator
Posts: 19,189
Registered: ‎12-07-2000

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

[ Edited ]

fleinn wrote:

CaptainAlbator wrote:
From my understanding of computers, and emulator is not a "chip". Emulation is achieved through software. Try as they might, and despite how some believe it wouldn't have "taken much effort for Sony" to emulate PS2 playback, the current PS3 console lacks the necessary HARDWARE to render PS3 graphics. So try as they might, it's just not PHYSICALLY possible. 

 


No.. look. The early ps3s had a piece of software that used an actual physical ps2 chip to run the graphics and the logic. There was another variant with just the graphics chip. This is really an emulation package that runs some of the function calls on the cell-processor, and other function calls on the ps2 chip (or the emotion engine).

 

 

It looks like this: Allocate memory on the ps3, run compiled bytecode of different kinds on the ps3. Then when you get to the more complex calls, the function is called from the ps3, and executed on the ps2 chip. The result comes back to the ps3 as if it was run in the program logic running there.

 

But it was possible to actually run those functions on the cell-processor after all. So when you pull that package from the ps-store apart, what you have is an emulator -- a very good and brilliantly programmed emulator, that runs the ps2 instruction set, basically emulating the ps2 instruction set, not actually running just the byte-code -- with an iso-file in it(the ps2 disc).

 

I don't care what Sony calls it, it's a brilliant piece of software. Not just because it's clever, but because it lets you run the actual shaders in different resolutions, and you can render the layers with different anti-aliasing filtering -- to get the overlay and scores clear, without blurring the entire image.

 

So you get something very smooth, in higher resolution than the original, with perfect sync -- and you can easily output it on the ps3, to your hdmi-tv, etc. Instead of having to run a low-res scaled context on a ps2, or on the original ps3 with halfway hardware emulation.

 

In other words - obviously Sony hides this product and don't want to sell it. Because it's just too good, I guess, and too much like a very large amount of fans have asked for..


Are you familiar with the expression that conspiracy theories are the refuge of the powerless? Of course the big, bad, greedy, inhuman corporation is keeping my PS2 games from me! That must be it!! 

 

I would now ask you how exactly they would make money by letting you play your ten year old PS2 games, but you'd probably say "they'd totally sell totally so totally many totally consoles.. totally". Once again, the console is a LOSS LEADER. They don't make money by you playing your PS2 games. "Gamers" always seem to get it backwards. If you bought your PS3 to play PS2 games, then that's on you. It's been FIVE YEARS. You're not fighting the good fight anymore. It's time to let it go. 

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Fender Bender
fleinn
Posts: 4,131
Registered: ‎05-15-2009

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

Are you familiar with the term "sarcasm"?

And I'm not joking - I've picked the package apart. It has the exact same makeup as the ps1 emulator, except the code is of course different.

It also makes perfect sense for Sony to not release this emulator for use with ps2 discs, because like you say, they won't earn money on it to the extent they would if everyone bought all the games over again.

Nevertheless, the idea that people /would/ buy their ps2 library over again is of course ridiculous, like you point out. It's an old system, so you would typically want to play your favourite game, or something you've saved. Complete a game you never managed to complete, that sort of thing.

You could maybe imagine ps3 owners wanting to pick up some old games as well - ps2 games are still actually being printed, you know..

And for that, I believe it's very reasonable to expect ps3 owners would be willing to pay a one-time fee. Say, 40 euro? Specially since the ps2 library being offered online is and always will be spotty. Just like the ps1 library.

But that's not how Sony works. They did the same thing with the ps1 emulator. They've repackaged it as individual games, because they believe they can slice the games and sell them as individual packages for more money than they can get for adding the function to the ps3 (and making the ps3 a better sell).

Indeed, it's much too late for Sony to do that. And they've ended up, consciously, taking functionality off the ps3, stripping it down, and selling it cheaper. While going for selling multiplatform titles, rather than strengthening their own brand.

It's what Sony has been doing, it's what has caused the death of several good studios (from Factor 5 to SL/Psygnosis and Zipper). And if that's good business for Sony, then they should by all means go ahead and become Microsoft.

But I'm not going to buy it.
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PlayStation MVP
Logical_Dolphin
Posts: 12,905
Registered: ‎07-13-2000

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

I do agree that PSone Classics are likely ISOs with some slight modifications, but they use the built in PS1 emulator in the PS3's firmware.

For the PS2 Classics, I don't believe those are ISOs that are emulated. Based on the little Sony has said on the subject the game is recoded to run on the PS3, so it is treated like a PS3 title. Since PS2 Classics don't use the PS2 virtual memory card function, I believe this is the case.
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Fender Bender
fleinn
Posts: 4,131
Registered: ‎05-15-2009

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)


Logical_Dolphin wrote:
I do agree that PSone Classics are likely ISOs with some slight modifications, but they use the built in PS1 emulator in the PS3's firmware.

For the PS2 Classics, I don't believe those are ISOs that are emulated. Based on the little Sony has said on the subject the game is recoded to run on the PS3, so it is treated like a PS3 title. Since PS2 Classics don't use the PS2 virtual memory card function, I believe this is the case.

Doesn't work like that. 

 

You have two approaches to emulation. One is the variant used for official and unofficial ps1 emulators - they execute the byte-code (the finished compiled code that's actually run on the hardware) in a virtual context. This can be a difficult problem to get right, because the sync between events can be dependent on in-game logic. Which is something the program executing the byte-code doesn't see. This is what you would do with an "unofficial" emulator, because you can't actually reverse-engineer the entire program very easily. Or at least not completely, which is what you need to do.

 

The drawbacks here is that sync-issues are difficult to fix completely, and many effects and overlay effects will be very complicated to approximate perfectly, might involve multiple runs (which again makes sync-issues more difficult), etc.

 

The other variant, the one used with the ps2 emulator, is to execute the higher level function calls. That's not something you can do as a hobbyist. But if you have access to the sdk and the ps2 documentation, you can take that approach. The advantages is that if you can guarantee the execution times based on the processing units, you will actually have perfect sync. On top of that, you will be able to splice the layers you render individually and programmatically, to add scaling and anti-aliasing filters on top of the program.

 

And you can probably call that a "re-encode", since what you're really doing is to virtualize a ps2 engine and execute the program itself on different hardware. But by definition it's an emulation variant, and not a "re-encode" of the actual master. That's something different - when you recompile the program for a different platform. Which is what happens with many of the HD remakes.

 

I'm sure it might count as a re-encode when thinking about the license, since it is no longer running on the ps2 hardware. And that's all Sony folks care about now. But technically speaking from the programming perspective, it's an emulator. (And a very sexy one at that. With very good output. I mean, from my perspective, it's difficult for me to understand exactly how bad Sony's marketing will have to be to fail to sell that emulator to the publishers they have contact with. Just look at how good Shinobi and God Hand looks in the emulator, for example..).

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PlayStation MVP
Logical_Dolphin
Posts: 12,905
Registered: ‎07-13-2000

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

I respect your opinion, but I think you are over-thinking it.

I still believe that PS2 Classics, are just like the PS2 HD remasters (games recoded (ported) to run on the PS3 without the use of an emulator), the difference is that PS2 Classics aren't enhanced at all..
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Fender Bender
fleinn
Posts: 4,131
Registered: ‎05-15-2009

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

It's not my opinion. And yes, you have some good ps2 remasters. The Sly collection and the ICO collection, for example. They're really well done. And those would be "re-encodes", and they're a lot better than the emulation (even if it's based on some of the same principles).

But they are more expensive than just repackaging the original disc, right? The MGS HD collection is even more expensive - that had to have a new engine altogether. And they didn't actually get absolutely all the effects and details across in the end..

So when that emulation version is as good as it actually is - in the case of Silent Hill and DMC3, etc., it's going to be better than the multiplatform "hd" remake - why not expand the library? Why not push this to publishers of ps2 games? Present just how good that solution is?

I mean, I know why that doesn't happen. I've heard the arguments too - I'm just saying that as a gamer, wouldn't you want the best versions? When selling the ps3 - wouldn't that make sense as well?
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PlayStation MVP
CaptainAlbator
Posts: 19,189
Registered: ‎12-07-2000

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)


fleinn wrote:
It's not my opinion. And yes, you have some good ps2 remasters. The Sly collection and the ICO collection, for example. They're really well done. And those would be "re-encodes", and they're a lot better than the emulation (even if it's based on some of the same principles).

But they are more expensive than just repackaging the original disc, right? The MGS HD collection is even more expensive - that had to have a new engine altogether. And they didn't actually get absolutely all the effects and details across in the end..

So when that emulation version is as good as it actually is - in the case of Silent Hill and DMC3, etc., it's going to be better than the multiplatform "hd" remake - why not expand the library? Why not push this to publishers of ps2 games? Present just how good that solution is?

I mean, I know why that doesn't happen. I've heard the arguments too - I'm just saying that as a gamer, wouldn't you want the best versions? When selling the ps3 - wouldn't that make sense as well?

Sorry, but it's simply not true. The remastered games are the completed game with the graphics bolstered to high defintion, not complete remakes with a new game engine. Do they do some work to a game to make sure everything doesn't come crashing down around you? Absolutely, but these are not "new" games. The reason for this is that if a new engine were used, it would take as much time, money, and work to "remake" an old game as it would to simply make a brand new one. This is the very reason Zipper said why you wouldn't see a SOCOM II remake.  

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Fender Bender
fleinn
Posts: 4,131
Registered: ‎05-15-2009

Re: PS2 backwards compatibility? (multiple sources)

Didn't say they were new games. But the MGS collection, like ZOE HD, is Kojima's new multiplatform FOX engine. And you are missing a few of the weather effects, some of the lighting, and so on that were in the original. They've replaced a few of the effects with static lighting - and this takes time, and it takes effort. Obviously it's a much better piece of work than the Capcom "HD" ports, but it's essentially the same thing. A new engine with the original assets, some of the effects missing, with the viewport set to higher resolution.

Splinter Cell and the Ubisoft re-releases (except Rayman) was even worse - this was the original xbox/console version with higher resolution and another anti-aliasing filter. Even IGN saw that this wasn't a good version.

Bluepoint, who made the ICO collection, used a different approach on their games. And they could do that, because they're simulating the function calls running on a real ps2 on the cell processor. That's the problem, see? The ps2 memory still is too fast to actually run it on a traditional gpu/cpu system innately without modification.

If they made it into a multiplatform title, they would need to remake pretty much all of the layers, the horizon effect would have to be created all over again, the shaders for the colossi would look different, would overlap on Wander. The animation would be different, etc., etc.

But specially for that game, like with the Okami collection, it makes perfect sense to create an actual remake, right? It's not exactly expensive compared to creating a new game either - the Bluepoint folks commented on that early on, how cheap and quickly they actually could do a conversion.

But to do that for 100s of ps2 games? The Xenosaga games, for example? They'd sell 100 copies the first week, that sort of thing. Wouldn't pay off.

So then it would make sense to use the emulation approach, that's my point. And I don't get why none of you guys who are supposed to represent us can at least accept that this might be a good idea? And that there are worse ways to promote the playstation brand than flooding the psn with digital versions of the ps2 games. Specially when the emulation is that good.

I mean, I visited a Gamestop a while ago. They had newly printed DMC games on their shelf - do you know why? It's because the hd collections were traded in and people specifically asked for the original ps2 version. It's just a completely obvious thing that having those games in a better version on the psn would promote it.

But Sony won't do that, because "Sony" collectively have decided on beforehand that they want to sell "ps3 games" - and "re-encodes" -- "new games" -- instead of the "old games".

Which then has morphed to "we want to only sell multiplatform games, to get free advertisement. But there were other options here, see.
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