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Keyblade Wielder
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 7, 2013
I just think the complaints are a bit funny. That's all. I guess I will just never understand the need to play old games when you spend so much money on a new console. I mean certainly your average person can't really juggle the two when they have something like a job. And if you plan on playing more PS3 games than PS4 games, do you really need a PS4 at launch? Certainly as a generation progresses, backwards compatability becomes less and less relevant to begin with.

And while Sony has said things like that in the past, apparently it was not nearly as profitable as they thought it would be. Backwards compatability did help drive up the cost of the PS3 and you can bet that when Harrison said that in 2006, Sony was expecting to top the PS2 in sales. They have instead sold less than half as many. I'm sure they also weren't expecting to have to completely change the hardware on the PS4.

Sony as a company has also been running in the red for a very long time and catering to a small minority of people is probably not in their best interest. And another thing to think about is the next generation and the improvements they plan on adding to PSN just might not be compatable with PS3 games. According to Microsoft, the reason they dumped online support for original Xbox games was because it was holding back what they wanted to do with the service.

Now I have seen a couple of excuses that Sony might plan to resell these games for the PS4 as HD remakes. Well for one, HD remakes are usually not that expensive to begin with and with such a big marketplace consisting of PS3 games, they wouldn't even have to do that to sell them since they could continue to sell the same exact library without wasting any money on future development for the same titles. But now if they plan on abandoning the millions upon millions of dollars they could make off the current library, don't you think there has to be good reason for that?
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 7, 2013

Sony Thought 'Long and Hard' Over PS4's Lack of Backward Compatibility

Posted Sun, 07 Apr 2013 | 17:15 BST by Sammy Barker

Losing legacy support wasn't an easy decision for the platform holder

Mark Cerny 2

There’s no doubt that the PlayStation 4 is exciting for all sorts of reasons, but the next generation system’s lack of backward compatibility remains one of its biggest blemishes. While the manufacturer has promised to explore other methods of legacy support through Gaikai, the fact remains that your entire PlayStation 3 catalogue may never be supported by the impending machine. This, according to system architect Mark Cerny, was a subject that the entire company agonised over.

Chatting with Japanese publication AV Watch [via NeoGAF], Cerny explained that he spent an entire Thanksgiving weekend trying to solve the problem of backward compatibility. In the end, he decided that switching to the more developer-friendly X86 architecture would result in more advantages for the console than legacy support.

“We struggled with this point,” he said. “We decided to focus on the ‘positive aspects’ of switching to X86. If a different architecture had been selected, it probably would have been even more problematic. The X86 architecture is well known and development is relatively easy.”

Sony’s Masayasu Ito added that while backward compatibility is undoubtedly important, it would have required the company to include the PS3’s cumbersome CELL chip inside the next generation console, which could have led to manufacturing headaches down the line. “We can freely manufacture CELL if the decision is made that it’s needed,” he explained. “However, that’s not the case with supporting hardware. There are parts that will become difficult to obtain.”

Ito added that the company thought “long and hard” about the decision to not include backward compatibility, but ultimately opted to make a clean break. “Using this opportunity, we decided to stop going down this path, and, as Mark said, to focus our efforts on simplifying developer efforts,” he concluded. The advantages of such an approach are plentiful, as we observed in a recent feature on the site.

Are you happy to substitute backward compatibility for better performing games, or do you wish that Sony had found a means to support PS3 titles on the PS4? Let us know your thoughts in the comments section below.

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VP of Gaming
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 7, 2013

glaciusx25 wrote:

Setzaroth wrote:

Why do people say PC gaming is so much cheaper? Last time I checked, all the major games are still $50-60

 

Not to mention a PC thats able to run them on max settings costs more than the PS4


Probably because Steam has sales like every freakin week.

 

Assuming you don't pre-order or buy games the day they come out, you can get games dirt cheap. I got Skyrim for like $10 or something.

 

Unless you consider the huge PC Pirating community, since PC games are easy to pirate compared to console.

 

Still, majority of games I buy are console. Unless they're PC favorable.


They have "sales" on five to ten year old games that nobody is buying anymore. Valve and Steam practice what's known as McDonaldization. That's where you give people a lot of something at a cheap price, so they think they are getting a good value. Quality is replaced by quantity, and as we all know the gamer cognoscenti loves getting a lot of something, regardless of quality.

 

An entire generation has grown up eating off the dollar menu, and buying cheap crap at Wal Mart, and now can't conceive of paying good money for quality. Just because you get a lot of something, doesn't mean it's a good value.

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Keyblade Wielder
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 7, 2013
And valve is also just a software developer and media distribution company. Valve doesn't make their own console and then sell it for hundreds cheaper than it cost them to make while making up for it by selling games. Everybody thought Steambox was going to save us all. Then we saw the price of the Xi3 Piston which is $1000 and is going to be sold for profit.

And I also don't think Skyrim has ever been 10.00. The cheapest it's been on its own is 30.00. There was a holiday bundle which included Skyrim, Dishonored and a boatload of Bethseda games that nobody buys. The cost of this bundle was 95.00. And every game on Steam is also only a single user license. It can only be played from the account it was purchased on.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 7, 2013

Another Backwards Compatibility thread. I made one back in the day when they discontinued it on the PS3. Sony thinks that gamers will just want to stream games on their consoles? I and other gamers like myself want to play the physical copy because it belongs to us. Playing a game that is on some server in a building doesn't belong to you. Sony can say "okay this streaming service is costing us billions of dollars and we can not afford to maintain it, so we are pulling the plug". All those free games you were playing are completely gone! 

 

I know Sony is being optimistic about the whole streaming services but let's face facts: not everyone has an internet connection and people may not have the extra money to pay for online services if Sony chooses to demand a fee for playing this games on the fly. Personally I feel a console should just be a gaming console and nothing more. I don't need all the bells and whistles that they are promising. I don't need to watch Netflix or play my music or watch movies on it. I need a gaming console just to play games with and nothing more.

 

Now if the PS4 had BC than more consumers would buy the console.  Yet the PS3 would stop selling as much and they would lose profit on that unit. But one needs to think about computer gaming, usually once a graphics card is updated by a new graphics card than the old graphics card becomes obsolete and usually stops selling and usually is put into the bargain bin. So Sony is thinking about prolonging the money train, keeps the manufacturing of the PS3 because people will get a PS3 and pay $300 bucks and they make money both on selling two different systems.

 

Hopefully Sony doesn't repackaged PS3 games and try to sell them on the PS4. Sony did that with PS2 titles because PS2 titles weren't HD in the first place. Now I got a few remakes of old PS2 titles just for the nostalgic feeling of playing old games.

 

People need to realize that Sony doesn't really make much of a profit on hardware but it is the software or games that they make up the money. So my best solution for BC is just keep your PS3 and not even worry about playing your PS3 games on the PS4. Plus you drain the life of your console to play games that were meant to play on the console it was designed for!

 

I have an idea and this would be a huge undertaking but I think each PS3 game should have the ability to download onto the PS4, so you put your PS3 game into the PS4 and then it asks you if you want to burn the game onto the harddrive of the PS4. This way you play the PS3 game on the new PS4 and you can officially can play it. The concern about piracy would require that you purchase a pass, maybe 10 bucks, you can purchase it on the PSN for that specific PS3 game. 

 

Sadly, I don't think they will add the ability of BC to it, eventhough it is a demand of consumers. I think just keeping your consoles will just be the smart thing to do. Also I just been playing Bioshock Infinite and it using the same type of graphics that they use in Bioshock. Yet it plays great and it feels refreshing and new. You don't need to abandoned a console just because a new one comes out!

 

Thanks,

FreshRevenge

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First Son
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 8, 2013

Dude, I've been a PC gamer since 16yo (10years back), just 2 weeks ago I bought a PSV.  Let me say something: PC games are ultramegacheap, the major cost is the PC... Mind you, for example:

 

I got for $5 the THQ bundle (Saints row 3; Company of Heroes, CoH: Tales of Valor, CoH: Opposing Fronts, Red Faction: Armageddon, Metro 2033 and Darksiders) - didn't install any of this games yet, already had all CoH.

 

Got for $4.5 Deus Ex Collection, got Simcity 5 and ME3 (as EA "sorry") for ~$25 couple of weeks ago; got RE6 a week ago for $22.

 

Portal 2 for $4; Skyrim + DLCs $25; Fallout 3 + Vegas $10.

 

All these games are "quality" games. Maybe you dont like them, and on release most of these games were $40~$50, but, if you aren't a professional player/plays all day, there's a lot of games that you just won't get on release (even then you can find somewhere where they are cheap) and will get when a discount appears.

 

Also, on my case, being a brazilian, I have the following: Steam sells games in Brazil for ~80% of the price in USA (just like a $10 USA game is sold here at the equivalent of $8), brazilian PSN sells the game at 160%~200% the price of the game in USA (yeah, looks like, at least at Sony eyes, we brazilian are able to afford doubled prices...)

 

I've spent $70 on PSN NA (for the abovementioned reasons I don't have a brazilian account) for 1 PSOne classic, 1 PSP game, 2 minis, 1 vita game (Persona 4) + got stolen for a 8gb memory card. Also spent a little less than that on MGS HD Collection (on mem stick, I know its $35 on PSN and you can get it on ebay for $23, but even paying a hhigh price in brazil I'm able to sell it later for almost the same price/trade it);

 

Just finishing this wall of text: PS4 specs are similar to my PC (i5-3570k @4,1ghz - HD7850 2GB - even AMD with 8cores have trouble on most games to catch a non OC i5, my GPU is probably very similar - or the very same - that will be used on PS4), but I'm sure the PS4 will cost less than half of the price of my PC... The way I see is this: Pay a lot of money for a PC - get cheap games, pay "little" for a Console - pay lots of money for games (besides no community game mods, only DLCs). If you don't have a PC (and don't care for PC only games - Simulations / Strategy Games / Niche PC games) it's WAY better to get a console, if you have a PC (and the money to upgrade) and don't mind the Console exclusives / waiting 2 years to a port (now, with the new PS4/Durango architeture I bet will be faster) stick to PC.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

[ Edited ]
Apr 8, 2013

Man, this thread is totally too long, so I didn't read.

Also, Backwards Compatibility is so overrated.

Same as the price of Console Games vs Steam, with Discs I can put up an ad on Craigslist/Kijiji and get cash back for new games.







Smiley Tongue

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VP of Gaming
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 8, 2013

SacaSoh_US wrote:

Dude, I've been a PC gamer since 16yo (10years back), just 2 weeks ago I bought a PSV.  Let me say something: PC games are ultramegacheap, the major cost is the PC... Mind you, for example:

 

I got for $5 the THQ bundle (Saints row 3; Company of Heroes, CoH: Tales of Valor, CoH: Opposing Fronts, Red Faction: Armageddon, Metro 2033 and Darksiders) - didn't install any of this games yet, already had all CoH.

 

Got for $4.5 Deus Ex Collection, got Simcity 5 and ME3 (as EA "sorry") for ~$25 couple of weeks ago; got RE6 a week ago for $22.

 

Portal 2 for $4; Skyrim + DLCs $25; Fallout 3 + Vegas $10.

 

All these games are "quality" games. Maybe you dont like them, and on release most of these games were $40~$50, but, if you aren't a professional player/plays all day, there's a lot of games that you just won't get on release (even then you can find somewhere where they are cheap) and will get when a discount appears.

 

Also, on my case, being a brazilian, I have the following: Steam sells games in Brazil for ~80% of the price in USA (just like a $10 USA game is sold here at the equivalent of $8), brazilian PSN sells the game at 160%~200% the price of the game in USA (yeah, looks like, at least at Sony eyes, we brazilian are able to afford doubled prices...)

 

I've spent $70 on PSN NA (for the abovementioned reasons I don't have a brazilian account) for 1 PSOne classic, 1 PSP game, 2 minis, 1 vita game (Persona 4) + got stolen for a 8gb memory card. Also spent a little less than that on MGS HD Collection (on mem stick, I know its $35 on PSN and you can get it on ebay for $23, but even paying a hhigh price in brazil I'm able to sell it later for almost the same price/trade it);

 

Just finishing this wall of text: PS4 specs are similar to my PC (i5-3570k @4,1ghz - HD7850 2GB - even AMD with 8cores have trouble on most games to catch a non OC i5, my GPU is probably very similar - or the very same - that will be used on PS4), but I'm sure the PS4 will cost less than half of the price of my PC... The way I see is this: Pay a lot of money for a PC - get cheap games, pay "little" for a Console - pay lots of money for games (besides no community game mods, only DLCs). If you don't have a PC (and don't care for PC only games - Simulations / Strategy Games / Niche PC games) it's WAY better to get a console, if you have a PC (and the money to upgrade) and don't mind the Console exclusives / waiting 2 years to a port (now, with the new PS4/Durango architeture I bet will be faster) stick to PC.


All you did was prove my point for me. Red Faction Armageddon? Nobody bought that to begin with. So who is getting the better of that deal? Portal 2? Not selling anymore. Funny how you didn't mention any NEW games. Why? Beacuse those sell for prices that are exactly the same as retail on Steamy Pile. Again, you're getting old games that they can't sell anymore, or that nobody bought in the first place. It's the equivalent of the garage sale.

 

Again, I know how gamer logic that McDonaldization is a great thing, but you're not necessarily getting a good value when you're doing them a favor by buying something that nobody wants.

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MVP Support
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 8, 2013

FreshRevenge wrote:

 

I have an idea and this would be a huge undertaking but I think each PS3 game should have the ability to download onto the PS4, so you put your PS3 game into the PS4 and then it asks you if you want to burn the game onto the harddrive of the PS4. This way you play the PS3 game on the new PS4 and you can officially can play it. The concern about piracy would require that you purchase a pass, maybe 10 bucks, you can purchase it on the PSN for that specific PS3 game. 

 


This is the problem:  The hardware of the PS4 (an x86 processor) is apparently incapable of emulating the hardware from the PS3 (Cell Broadband - a processor based on PowerPC technology).  Even burning the disc to the HDD would not change the fact that the PS4 hardware simply can't run the PS3 code.

 

To put it another way:  Apple abandoned PowerPC technology over 10 years ago.  It was able to keep PPC based software running on Intel-based Macs through an IBM-proprietary conversion (NOT emulation) algorhythm called Rosetta.  When Apple's association with IBM officially ended about four years ago, Apple no longer was authorized to include Rosetta with later versions of MacOS (specifically Lion and Mountain Lion - 10.7 and 10.8).  PowerPC-based Mac software no longer runs on Intel-based Macs that have been updated to 10.7 and beyond.

 

Basically, the same thing is going on with the PS4.  It is converting to an AMD-based processor, and there is currently no x86- or x64-based conversion/emulation engine available for IBM's Cell processors.

 

Modern PCs have proven they can emulate the EE/RSX from the PS2, as there are at least a couple of PC emulators available for PS2 software (which leads me to believe that it would be relatively simple to emulate the PS2 hardware on the PS4).  My question is...  have you seen any PC emulators for PS3 software?  The answer is no, because it is simply not possible at this point.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: No backwards compatibility NO PS4

Apr 8, 2013

It is just hard for me to believe that in a advanced world of eletronics where phones can play ps1 and psp games, tablets can play ps1, ps2, nintendo, and short versions of ps3 games that a full size console packed with the most up to date eletronics can not find a way to play older games from a less advanced mechine. Hard to beleave the tecks at sony are not smart enough at building and programing a advanced up to date game console that could do what so many people want it to. Play games less advanced than the ones made for it.

Unless that is the way sony wanted it to be to begin with.Just hard to beleave.

 

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

 

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