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Lombax Warrior
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013
Agreed fully. There has been a noticable downgrade in quality from the 6th gen days which I attribute to greed and stagnation within the video game developer community. And before people harp about the PC not allowing used games; Steam sales more than makes up for that PC gamers for the most part won't allow themselves to be walked over and have made there voices heard ( War Z). Console gamers need to get in on this action and let these companies know that we won't stand for actions such as this.

I tend to buy new games that I feel are worth thier asking price and used games for everything else. I can't imagine putting down 59.99 or 69.99 on a game where I wouldn't have a easy out if the game doesn't meet my expectations.
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Big Daddy
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

The language of the Patent itself is quite vague. Google the inventor of the patent, Hidehiro Inooki, his/her patents have very obscure language, and none of his/her patents have ever went into public consumption.

 

The technology could be used for people to HAVE to make a license purchase to the developer/publisher, which would be an extension of EA's online passport scheme and would eliminate the trouble of misprinted codes or the cards that have no codes even printed.

 

Also, Logical makes a good point.... Sony's patent purchases have not made it to the consumer.

 

Remember Sony applying for a patent that allows them to have a separate add-on for a console that allows Backwards compatibility for PS1 and PS2 games? What happened with that?

What is Sony going to do wth Gaikai? Is it going to be the new delivery system for Plus, which might also provide a premium online service? Or is it an asset that Sony can sell later on for massive profit?

You guys SERIOUSLY, should not buy into this. 



Sony hasn't even said anything, and a previous offical statement from Sony quotes them by saying they will no try anything to alienate the used game market.


Unless ITS OFFICIAL, don't believe a word of it. Every company buys and applies for MANY patents that never see the light of day. This newfound "scheme" of keeping tabs on the activities of a company to report and speculate is unnecessary and quite dangerous.

Furiously Chaosing
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Splicer
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

this is not a smart move and the few people out there who support this need to think for a moment. devs only make X amount of new titles. can you find a new copy of (EXAMPLES) "the darkness"  "star ocean: the last hope"  "marvel UA?" 

 you might be able to online for more than what the retailed for. if its a used game how is it taking away from a dev when they already made that money on a game? its called business. i should be able to sell what i have bought to any one.  to me sony is making their own noose. and to all the people that said they would switch to xbox guess what? they're doing the same.

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Big Daddy
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

Leviathan_502 wrote:

this is not a smart move and the few people out there who support this need to think for a moment. devs only make X amount of new titles. can you find a new copy of (EXAMPLES) "the darkness"  "star ocean: the last hope"  "marvel UA?" 

 you might be able to online for more than what the retailed for. if its a used game how is it taking away from a dev when they already made that money on a game? its called business. i should be able to sell what i have bought to any one.  to me sony is making their own noose. and to all the people that said they would switch to xbox guess what? they're doing the same.


Its called "loss of potential sales"..... How many copies do you think become sold to another person for a given title? 100k? 500k? What if those copies had a licensing issue where if it was to be sold, the new user would have to give up $5 or $10 or whatever amount they charge, to those used titles? That would mean they are making $2 million on the 100k used copies for a $20 used-game-license.

You're right, it IS business. When it takes MANY millions of dollars to produce a game, and theres never a guarantee of the games' success, putting in a sort of a Royalty type system for used games, puts a guarantee that any copy that is sold used, puts some money back into the hands of the publisher/developer.

This is something that shouldn't be done by the console developer, but by the game developers themselves. 

One can argue that this live and let live/die and let die type of deal we have right now works, but what about the WHAT IF factor?
WHAT IF, Zipper Interactive was given another chance, by sheer financing, to make another GOOD Socom game?
Or what about the many small upstart developers that close its doors within a year or two of starting on a game, because they can't find the financing/investors needed to finish the game? Think about the many potential great games the public has missed out on, because there was enough money circulating from previous sales.

You also do know, that the actual cost per copy sold is actually less than the retail cost of a game? You have the publisher taking their cut, as well as the actual companies that produce the materials for the game such as the cases, books, pressing discs etc etc.... and then theres the overhead for the developer... building costs, employee salaries etc etc.

This is the one way that Activision has been so successful with their "assembly line" of games.... they always make DLC and season passes that cannot be sold on the used market, for $20+ to guarantee that games stay as profitable as they can.
Truth be told, the cost of a COD game and the season pass scheme, actually make the games cost around $100 all-in. And with the games being record setting in terms of volume and profitability, its kinda hard to ignore the fact that just ONE game, can have the potential to have a company make a $1billion dollar profit just a few short months after release. Even MW3's $700million 3-day launch window... ONE developer and publisher making that much money in such a short amount of time with only a 1 year and $50million investment.... think of how long a business can run just from those kinds of profits.... and they'd only have to release such a game every few years to continue to stay relevant.

 

 

EA is doing it with online passports, and its has done pretty successful.

 

If Microsoft is also going to be doing this then guess what? Its not a "making their own noose" if everyone else is going to do it.... because with that sort of reasoning, the gaming industry as a whole would collapse for the most part. At least for console gamers.

Furiously Chaosing
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

Arkthur_us wrote:

Source

 

Sony has reportedly patented technology that will prevent the use of second hand games on consoles.

According to NeoGAF member gofreak, the patent application was filed on 9 December 2012 by Sony Computer Entertainment Japan, and will work by linking individual game discs to a user's account without requiring a network connection meaning any future attempt to use this disc on another user's console won't work.

 

The patent explains that games will come with contactless tags that will be read by your console in much the same way as modern bank cards. When a disc is first used, the disc ID and player ID will be stored on the tag. Every time the disc is used in future, the tag will check if the two ID’s match up and, if not, then the disc won’t work.

 

The document goes on to explain that such a device is part of Sony's ongoing efforts to deter second-hand games sales, and is a far simpler solution than always-on DRM or passwords.

 

It's worth noting that Sony has not confirmed the existence of the device, and the patent doesn't state what machine it will be used in, with later paragraphs also mentioning accessories and peripherals.

 

It does raise some concerns though. Firstly, the impact on game rental stores would be catastrophic as surely this means they'd no longer be able to do business? Given publishers' usual desire to keep retailers sweet by not undercutting them on prices and the like, this would be an unusual move.

 

There's also the issue of what happens should your console break and need replacing, or if you have more than one console. Will the games be linked to your PSN account, meaning they can still be used, or the console, meaning an entire new library of titles would need to be purchased?

 

IGN reached out to Sony for comment but was told the company doesn't comment on rumour and speculation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't buy used games but man this is going to hit hard to some people.

This reminds me of a friend who said that the future was you only need to buy one disc, install the game, and pass it to another person so they install it in their console too. I must have argued with him for a whole hour telling him how stupid this idea was and that game companies wont willingly loose money. Guess I must show him this article now eh?

 

Leave your thoughts.


 I think  this more for pirates games/ hacked online games  than a second hand sale.

Mcbuttz78

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

gR3yGh051 wrote:

Leviathan_502 wrote:

this is not a smart move and the few people out there who support this need to think for a moment. devs only make X amount of new titles. can you find a new copy of (EXAMPLES) "the darkness"  "star ocean: the last hope"  "marvel UA?" 

 you might be able to online for more than what the retailed for. if its a used game how is it taking away from a dev when they already made that money on a game? its called business. i should be able to sell what i have bought to any one.  to me sony is making their own noose. and to all the people that said they would switch to xbox guess what? they're doing the same.


Its called "loss of potential sales"..... How many copies do you think become sold to another person for a given title? 100k? 500k? What if those copies had a licensing issue where if it was to be sold, the new user would have to give up $5 or $10 or whatever amount they charge, to those used titles? That would mean they are making $2 million on the 100k used copies for a $20 used-game-license.

You're right, it IS business. When it takes MANY millions of dollars to produce a game, and theres never a guarantee of the games' success, putting in a sort of a Royalty type system for used games, puts a guarantee that any copy that is sold used, puts some money back into the hands of the publisher/developer.-    i dont think it can be done,  what your tlking is  alot of lawsuits from past sales. I dont it worth  the hasle or could be done 


This is something that shouldn't be done by the console developer, but by the game developers themselves. 

One can argue that this live and let live/die and let die type of deal we have right now works, but what about the WHAT IF factor?
WHAT IF, Zipper Interactive was given another chance, by sheer financing, to make another GOOD Socom game?
Or what about the many small upstart developers that close its doors within a year or two of starting on a game, because they can't find the financing/investors needed to finish the game? Think about the many po tential great games the public has missed out on, because there was enough money circulating from previous salesZipper was given  alot of chances,  they where never profitable to sony. it bad buisness to  good  money  behind  wasted money. I  agree they could have demoted them to psvita dev  or psn dev. But what done is done. It sad to  see.

You also do know, that the actual cost per copy sold is actually less than the retail cost of a game? You have the publisher taking their cut, as well as the actual companies that produce the materials for the game such as the cases, books, pressing discs etc etc.... and then theres the overhead for the developer... building costs, employee salaries etc etc.

This is the one way that Activision has been so successful with their "assembly line" of games.... they always make DLC and season passes that cannot be sold on the used market, for $20+ to guarantee that games stay as profitable as they can.
Truth be told, the cost of a COD game and the season pass scheme, actually make the games cost around $100 all-in. And with the games being record setting in terms of volume and profitability, its kinda hard to ignore the fact that just ONE game, can have the potential to have a company make a $1billion dollar profit just a few short months after release. Even MW3's $700million 3-day launch window... ONE developer and publisher making that much money in such a short amount of time with only a 1 year and $50million investment.... think of how long a business can run just from those kinds of profits.... and they'd only have to release such a game every few years to continue to stay relevant.   I understand what your saying  but alot if it  50-50 thing  and  timing thing,  cod is popluar game and thats how alot companes are able to get people to jump in  those kinda of deals.  Selling it while it hot and addictive.  the avergae game  say for example  "Haze " wouldnt be able to do that. its  a sucide  plan beucase its a bad game that not hot. even  when 1st debuted  this  format  wouldnt have worked. this plan  good for  a popular title not for a avg title.

 

 

EA is doing it with online passports, and its has done pretty successful.

 

If Microsoft is also going to be doing this then guess what? Its not a "making their own noose" if everyone else is going to do it.... because with that sort of reasoning, the gaming industry as a whole would collapse for the most part. At least for console gamers. well  all i can  they are rumored to be doing it as well  for nex xbox console  so  i suppose the   gaming industry is going to change. it rumored apple has a huge announcenet this year, also   valve . this why  i think sony has got that digital  steam deal done which is very smart plan/ move . I dont know  what   wii and  xbox is going to do. but it better be smart.


 

Mcbuttz78

vp-psn legioniaree group.

Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future

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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

DragonIrons wrote:

muslimsk8r wrote:

I do remember back in 2005 rumors of this showing up in the PS3. However, thing have changed. The economy has gotten bad and game developers are putting up more vocal oppsition to second hand games. I don't harbor the hatered towards gamestop that many people have and go thier for pretty much all my gaming needs. To see them go would hurt the industry badly.


If the game devs would stop charging so much for new games alot of us wouldnt' WAIT to buy them used(I've seen this time and time again, do you want to know the reason they charge so much? Because you line up at midnight at GameStop to buy them. Stop buying them at $60, and they stop charging that. The market currently bears the $60 price tag, and they aren't going to change because of one guy complaining on the internet)......

 

The ONLY games I've bought new were games that were WORTH the money..... huge games like Skyrim (even with it's bugs from hell).  Games you can beat in one day?.... sorry but that's only worth about $20 or so. Or a rent

(Honestly, who's fault is it that you buy a game you "beat in one day"? It's not the length of games that are changing, it's PLAYING HABITS. A lot of "gamers" plop themselves down in front of the widescreen and play in these marathon sessions for hours at a time. Gone are the days you'd play for an hour or so, and then do something else. Video games somewhere around 2007 became a "lifestyle", and not merely a hobby. Out of curiosity I replayed through the original Syphon Filter not long ago, and how long would you guess the game was? Twenty hours? Nope. Fifteen hours? Guess again. WIth one level to go, the game clocked in at a total EIGHT HOURS. The original Metal Gear Solid minus cutscenes, clocks in at 4.5 hours. Nobody felt short changed by those games, because there wasn't this belief that longer was better by default.)

 

....... I'd say about 90% of my games (46 now) for the PS3 were bought used on Amazon or gamestop.  How they can think every single game is worth 60 bucks (even if you can beat it in 5 hours) is beyond me.

(Again, because people are BUYING them. And your statement of buying 90% of your games used is what prompted this technology. in the past I've demonstrated that buying used actually doesn't save you money. It's the IDEA of saving money that many are so enamored with, and the quick turn around that GameStop offers which appeals to those without the patience to sell their games themselves. That's more important than the actual savings)

 

 

Hell one game I got NEW recently from Amazon themselves for 30 bucks.... I just saw in Best Buy the other day for 60 still. They cant' even keep appraised of prices. I got it for 30 on amazon (and no i don't remember which game lol, i've gotten quite a few recently) and it was like 40 new at gamestop..... Best Buy is NEVER the Best Buy. I've seen it in alot more then games. Hell I just got a new phone system for the house there for $45 then a week later saw it at staples for $29...... not gonna bother getting the price match difference refunded though... Best Buy needs to change their name, seriously. And i don't know why that turned into a best buy rant lol...

(You do realize you have more choices than just GameStop, Amazon, and Best Buy? You are currently connected to the INTERNET. It is a vast resource of information, and if you're not using it to save you money, it's actually costing you money. I recently picked up Black Ops 2 for $40 at Target. Yep, you read that right. Black Ops 2 is currently $54.99 at GameStop. That's a price difference of $14. How exactly is buying used "saving money"? Because I seem to do much better buying new)

 

Oh and on the topic of my first sentence....... Another reason I wait to buy used or just wait.... I wait for GOTY or FULL editions to come out then wait a bit more and get THEM cheaper. Sorry Devs, but this DLC stuff is b.s. half the time it's not even new content like an expansion, it's already ON the disc. Sometimes it's even cheaper to buy the game used AND buy the DLC then get the game new.....

(I don't dispute that Game Of The Year editions are a good value, however buying used seldom saves you money. I've illustrated that, and it's a claim that holds absolutely no water. Trading in your games saves you no money either. There are better ways to save money, and it seems your needlessly overpaying, and then turning around blaming the industry for being "Meanie, greedy, poopy heads!". If you're over paying, you're not shopping around well enough. I don't blame the industry for charging $60 when people are willing to pay it. That's what's called the "free market". Furthermore, I find it ironic that gamers themselves are willing to render the veritable deathblow to used games by embracing things like digital downloads, and "cloud" gaming, in the hopes that cutting out a physical medium will somehow magically lower prices. It won't. It will only add to the industry's bottom line by downsizing the product and upsizing the profits. The "future" isn't as bright as you might want to believe it is).


 

 

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Big Daddy
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 3, 2013

mcbuttz78 wrote:

gR3yGh051 wrote:

Leviathan_502 wrote:

this is not a smart move and the few people out there who support this need to think for a moment. devs only make X amount of new titles. can you find a new copy of (EXAMPLES) "the darkness"  "star ocean: the last hope"  "marvel UA?" 

 you might be able to online for more than what the retailed for. if its a used game how is it taking away from a dev when they already made that money on a game? its called business. i should be able to sell what i have bought to any one.  to me sony is making their own noose. and to all the people that said they would switch to xbox guess what? they're doing the same.


Its called "loss of potential sales"..... How many copies do you think become sold to another person for a given title? 100k? 500k? What if those copies had a licensing issue where if it was to be sold, the new user would have to give up $5 or $10 or whatever amount they charge, to those used titles? That would mean they are making $2 million on the 100k used copies for a $20 used-game-license.

You're right, it IS business. When it takes MANY millions of dollars to produce a game, and theres never a guarantee of the games' success, putting in a sort of a Royalty type system for used games, puts a guarantee that any copy that is sold used, puts some money back into the hands of the publisher/developer.-    i dont think it can be done,  what your tlking is  alot of lawsuits from past sales. I dont it worth  the hasle or could be done 


This is something that shouldn't be done by the console developer, but by the game developers themselves. 

One can argue that this live and let live/die and let die type of deal we have right now works, but what about the WHAT IF factor?
WHAT IF, Zipper Interactive was given another chance, by sheer financing, to make another GOOD Socom game?
Or what about the many small upstart developers that close its doors within a year or two of starting on a game, because they can't find the financing/investors needed to finish the game? Think about the many po tential great games the public has missed out on, because there was enough money circulating from previous salesZipper was given  alot of chances,  they where never profitable to sony. it bad buisness to  good  money  behind  wasted money. I  agree they could have demoted them to psvita dev  or psn dev. But what done is done. It sad to  see.

The first 3 Socom games were the best made by Zipper.... it wasn't until COD4:MW that Zipper was FORCED to try new things to bring more people to play Socom games, and it backfired on them. This is why Zipper wasn't profitable afterwards and why they tried something very new with MAG, this is also why Slant Six was brought in to make Confrontation, which was quite good IMO. But lets not make this completely about the developer... SOCOM belongs to Sony, and it was ultimately Sony that made them change the game.

You also do know, that the actual cost per copy sold is actually less than the retail cost of a game? You have the publisher taking their cut, as well as the actual companies that produce the materials for the game such as the cases, books, pressing discs etc etc.... and then theres the overhead for the developer... building costs, employee salaries etc etc.

This is the one way that Activision has been so successful with their "assembly line" of games.... they always make DLC and season passes that cannot be sold on the used market, for $20+ to guarantee that games stay as profitable as they can.
Truth be told, the cost of a COD game and the season pass scheme, actually make the games cost around $100 all-in. And with the games being record setting in terms of volume and profitability, its kinda hard to ignore the fact that just ONE game, can have the potential to have a company make a $1billion dollar profit just a few short months after release. Even MW3's $700million 3-day launch window... ONE developer and publisher making that much money in such a short amount of time with only a 1 year and $50million investment.... think of how long a business can run just from those kinds of profits.... and they'd only have to release such a game every few years to continue to stay relevant.   I understand what your saying  but alot if it  50-50 thing  and  timing thing,  cod is popluar game and thats how alot companes are able to get people to jump in  those kinda of deals.  Selling it while it hot and addictive.  the avergae game  say for example  "Haze " wouldnt be able to do that. its  a sucide  plan beucase its a bad game that not hot. even  when 1st debuted  this  format  wouldnt have worked. this plan  good for  a popular title not for a avg title.
Its not a 50/50 thing.... its a guaranteed sale for all copies. The developer/publisher already gets their money from retailers/distributors, its only up to the retailers to make their money back (and then some) for their own profits. This system would guarantee that ANY copy that is used, gets profits the moment it changes hands.


 

 

EA is doing it with online passports, and its has done pretty successful.

 

If Microsoft is also going to be doing this then guess what? Its not a "making their own noose" if everyone else is going to do it.... because with that sort of reasoning, the gaming industry as a whole would collapse for the most part. At least for console gamers. well  all i can  they are rumored to be doing it as well  for nex xbox console  so  i suppose the   gaming industry is going to change. it rumored apple has a huge announcenet this year, also   valve . this why  i think sony has got that digital  steam deal done which is very smart plan/ move . I dont know  what   wii and  xbox is going to do. but it better be smart.


 


 

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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 4, 2013

muslimsk8r wrote:
Agreed fully. There has been a noticable downgrade in quality from the 6th gen days which I attribute to greed and stagnation within the video game developer community. And before people harp about the PC not allowing used games; Steam sales more than makes up for that PC gamers for the most part won't allow themselves to be walked over and have made there voices heard ( War Z). Console gamers need to get in on this action and let these companies know that we won't stand for actions such as this.

I tend to buy new games that I feel are worth thier asking price and used games for everything else. I can't imagine putting down 59.99 or 69.99 on a game where I wouldn't have a easy out if the game doesn't meet my expectations.

Steam and Valve utilize a practice called "McDonaldization". It's where you give someone a lot of a product at a cheap price, so they feel that they are getting "quality". This whole idea of Steam users not being walked over is a fallacy. You are surrendering your right to resell your games you buy at retail outlets, all so that you can install their digital storefront on your PC, and so they can sell you five to ten year old games at a cheap price. Is that really not allowing yourself to be walked over? Because it sounds to me you've been sold the proverbial "magic beans". 

 

The last time I looked, bundling a third piece of software and then forcing people to use it was in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act (see the 1999 Supreme Court Descision of The United States vs. Microsoft). Gabe Newell learned that practice when he worked for Bill Gates, the only difference between then and now is that gamers think he's a "swell guy" because they bought Total War for $5 "on sale".

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: New Sony Patent Blocks Second Hand Games

Jan 4, 2013

(You do realize you have more choices than just GameStop, Amazon, and Best Buy? You are currently connected to the INTERNET. It is a vast resource of information, and if you're not using it to save you money, it's actually costing you money. I recently picked up Black Ops 2 for $40 at Target. Yep, you read that right. Black Ops 2 is currently $54.99 at GameStop. That's a price difference of $14. How exactly is buying used "saving money"? Because I seem to do much better buying new)

 

 

That is so true. So many people get tricked by the whole well it's used so it must be cheaper thing. There are times where used games cost more than new games at GameStop.  I have seen it multiple times. So many people assume that used is cheaper and don't even check the price of the new game.

 

Also, just wait a few months and you can get a new copy for $20-$30. Every gamer I know has a huge backlog. Just play those until you can get it cheaper. Plus, have you seen some of the people who shop at GameStop? You really want their used games? 

 

I choose to buy new because I want to support the industry. If it's a game from one of my favorite franchises or developers then I will buy it on release day. If it's a game I just want to play and don't really care about the studio then I wait until I can get it way cheaper. Looking at you Assassins Creed 3.

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