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Big Daddy
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

GTP_ZombieDriver wrote:

1080p TVs can only 'pixel map' 1080p sources, as far as I've seen/heard/read.

Pixel mapping can apply to lower resolutions on large screens. Thats where you're asking to get your borders on lower resolutions... this is also why 4:3 aspect ratio, and 2.35/2.39/2.40:1 (anamorphic ratio) have borders on them. Also why there are displays that are best suited for video resolutions in a particular aspect ratio.
yes, they make "super wide" displays which show off these anamorphic ratios VERY well, they are 21:9 which fits the anamorphic ratios very well with a VERY SMALL to NO black border. My girlfriend/roommate has such a screen as she is a video editor and 3D media creator... I should start saying graphic artist in place of 3D media creator tho...
This is one of her finalize/preview screens when she edits video for a specific aspect ratio.
http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-29EA93-P-led-monitor

 

To get a feel of what I'm talking about regarding upscaling being ugly:

 

Watch a youtube video of a 720p game on a 1080p computer monitor. Compare full screen on = upscaling = ugly / full screen off = no upscaling = pretty.
Thats because youtube does a poor job at encoding and scaling.... And when you get into things like the person who uploads the video and if they have edited the video, then youtube's scaling is great.... when someone doesn't "polish" their video... then obviously, it looks like crap regardless of the resolution.
To test my theory (which is a known fact), take a few videos for examples and use Keepvid.com to download the SOURCE video from youtube. It will give you a result of various file-types and along side them list their resolution... download them and then display them in full screen.... One of them are going to be the SOURCE resolution of the video as it will look the best, while the others look like crap.

 

So what I'm asking for: for the PS3 to provide a 1080p output signal with: in the middle: the 720p image, around it: black borders to fill the gap between 720p and 1080p. The TV just receives this 1080p image, which it maps nice and clean to its 1080p pixels.

I don't see this ever happening, partly because I have a 1080 screen, and 720 scales excellently.... And ts a budget TV.
I really don't see any sort of problem that you're supposedly seeing.

 

Note: MKII from playstation store already uses this concept: the game is in the middle, with an 'arcade' border around it. It does this precisely to prevent upscaling from the tv.

Thats because the game has a resolution of 240p IIRC, and an aspect ratio of 4:3, the game is also running off of emulation software to play on the PS3 which does the job, but not coded well enough to scale the game into full screen. There are other SNES era games that have been translated well to run on the PS3 without this border. I have MKII as well.
I have an SNES and with a certain a/v cable, can display on full screen on my HDTV perfectly fine without any graphical anomalies


 

 

 

 




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First Son
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

As a reply to the two posts above me, I would gladly be linked to a 1080p tv that pixel maps a 720p image (meaning: with black borders), as not only have I been unable to find such a tv, I found several topics explicitly saying no such tv's exist .

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Big Daddy
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

GTP_ZombieDriver wrote:

As a reply to the two posts above me, I would gladly be linked to a 1080p tv that pixel maps a 720p image (meaning: with black borders), as not only have I been unable to find such a tv, I found several topics explicitly saying no such tv's exist .


There ARE TV's that exist that do such.... but they are RARE.

 

 

And if a TV doesn't have this ability, what makes you think the hardware outputting is going to be able to?
Updating software/firmware only does so much.

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First Son
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

[ Edited ]
Apr 30, 2013

Well, to answer your question, all the PS3 has to do is:

 

- take the original 720p image

- imbed it in a black 1080p image

- output the 1080p image

 

This is likely a simpler operation than upscaling, which the PS3 already supports for a lot of  720p games. Note it is likely also more performant than upscaling, which has to 'calculate' extra pixels, so we might even gain a few frames and/or better response times.

 

If this were done, all 1080p tv's would support it.

 

However, I realize this is not a 'popular' proposal, as most people's reasoning is: bigger image = better. So ofcourse it would be an option. However, I've heard other people wishing this were an option, so I'm not alone Smiley Very Happy

 

 

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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

GTP_ZombieDriver wrote:

Hi,

 

Currently there is no way to prevent a 720p game to upscale to 1080p on a 1080p tv: either the PS3 or the tv will upscale. Upscaled graphics are ugly, I'd gladly play with a smaller screen and black borders, and 1 on 1 pixel mapping in this case.

 

So, it would be very nice if there was an output option '720p to 1080p with black borders', for 720p content.

 

Greetz,

Wakke


Agreed.

 

The only solution I have found is to uncheck 720p when playing games that allow output in 1080p.

Now this still upscales the game, as of now this is unavoidable, but......

 

If your tv has a "Just Scan" mode you can press it while the PS3 outputs the 1080p signal and this will remove the overscan.

 

Its not a perfect solution but it does provide a larger view of the on screen action.

 

It also makes the picture sharper because it is not zoomed in as so much.

 

Cheers.

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

BBurgSteve wrote:

If you want to display 720p content in a 1280x720 'window', you are barking up the wrong tree.  That would be a TV option.  The PS3 is only the output device.  It is the TV that decides how to display it.  If you want this option, you'll need to contact the TV manufacturer.


Not always.

 

My cable box has display options, select letterbox and lower resolution content is displayed at native res on screen with black borders.

 

The PS3 when displaying DVD's allows you to select full screen or double resolution, etc.  This means you can have close to native res on screen with black borders.

 

The PS3 when displaying PS1 or PS2 games allows you to select similar full screen or letter boxed options.  This means you can get closer to native res with black borders.

 

The PS3 when displaying video content from a streaming source such as a home network allows you to select the viewing mode whether full screen or letterboxed.  This means you can have native res with black borders.

 

The PS3 under video options allows you to select a few options one of which refers to 720p bluray movies, stating if you select double res it will be displayed in full screen on a 1080p tv.  This make me think(As I have never seen a 720p Bluray) that if you had a 720P bluray and chose the right option you would see it displayed at native res with black borders.

 

In short the PS3 is the right tree to bark up in this case, why Sony did not allow this option only for games must have been due to a performance worst case scenerio they must have envisioned, or something similar.

 

 

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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I Only Post Everything
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013
They probably didn't give the option because the difference is negligible. If you think a 720p game playing on a 1080p tv looks like crap you are sitting too close to your tv. Even on big tvs you don't have to be very far before it is physically impossible to even tell the difference.
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First Son
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

[ Edited ]
Apr 30, 2013

Well, that's your opinion Smiley Wink

 

720p = 921600 pixels

1080p = 2073600 pixels

 

The difference is 1152000. That's the amount of pixels that are basically 'best guessed' when you upscale a 720p image to 1080p.

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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

Apr 30, 2013

smoothboarder540 wrote:
They probably didn't give the option because the difference is negligible. If you think a 720p game playing on a 1080p tv looks like crap you are sitting too close to your tv. Even on big tvs you don't have to be very far before it is physically impossible to even tell the difference.

Well you need to consider that some of us have 1:1 pixel modes in our tv's which can only be enabled if the tv receives a native res signal.

 

When i play resistance 2 I set the PS3 to display in 1080p and then can turn on "Just Scan"  this removes any overscan issues and shows me at least 10% more of the in game view.

 

This also makes the displayed images smaller as they are not expanded to fill the screen, this makes the image sharper.

Na13-31 wrote:
Finally, the structure of my question is that you would have to disprove every possible outcome to be correct and I would just have to have one that would likely be beneficial. That's statistically in my favor by quite a bit.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Give us an option to display 720p with black borders on 1080p

May 1, 2013

GTP_ZombieDriver wrote:

Well, that's your opinion Smiley Wink

 

720p = 921600 pixels

1080p = 2073600 pixels

 

The difference is 1152000. That's the amount of pixels that are basically 'best guessed' when you upscale a 720p image to 1080p.


Numbers don't mean much, because you're talking about the "bigger picture", literally.

 

You're still talking about a PERCEPTION of difference.


It really seems like you're reaching at straws here.

 

The "people" that want this.... dont amount to the many more who aren't even aware about such things.... This is why I presented you to AVSForum.... as thats the niche group you'd be interested in talking about this with and can find a TV that will do what you're looking for much easier than figuring out a way to reach out to Sony to make this a reality. 

Which is:

http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/


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