I appreciate that people may percieve inacurracies, that is the intent of the post, to discuss what and why those inaccuracies are.
If you don't really feel like contributing to the conversation, that's fine, but try and keep things constructive where possible, eh?
For 2v2 or FFA a constructive discussion is better IMO.
This is an inaccurate way of making a tier list. Different advantages will be better or worse than others as well as those advantages working better against certain characters but not others.
A matchup chart is better.
My bad by the way, I hadn't seen that it was in the OP.
I'm somewhat low on time, so I'll come back and add more later, but the most glaring inaccuracies to me seem to be Big Daddy and Jak.
Big Daddy plays a very important role in 2v2: That of a protector (Which really suits his character!). Due to his super armor, which he has on a vast majority of his moveset, and his disables, he is incredibly effective at breaking teammates out of combos and at fighting 1v2 while his teammate (Preferably a ranged character) picks them off from a distance. He is also great, due to his godlike tech chase game and his disables, at locking down a single character so that combo heavy people such as Dante or Nariko can complete combos uninterrupted against the second person. If they should mess up and get comboed themselves, then Big Daddy can super armor in and save the day.
On top of this, due to his disables (Shock plasmid, Ice plasmid, and to a certain extent down triangle, triangle, down square both ground and air versions) he allows his teammates very easy combos into super. Any time he lands a down triangle against both opponents it should turn into a double kill (This is also one of his greatest weaknesses in FFA).
He also has an amazing AP gain and his level 2 is particularly well suited for teams, as is his level 3. His bad matchups can also be nullified by having a partner there to watch your **bleep**.
Jak actually plays a very similar role. Since he never hits the ground, he pretty much lives forever in team matches, and is excellent at disrupting opponents. His supers work especially well in teams, and his level 3 can end a game by itself. Stuff like the scattergun is great for saving teammates, and some of his less useful moves, such as the 5 AP up triangle, become much more useful when you have a teammate who can combo off of them.
Due to his evasiveness and not having to rely on being grounded much of ever, he is also one of the better 1v2 characters should your partner die first.
You touch on a few great points Fromundaman:
The Big Daddy conundrum for me is that for everything he does I feel like other characters do better. He has more armored moves than probably all of the other characters combined, but none of his armored moves are as good as Evil Cole's Giga Punch, Sly's somersault thing, and Kratos' chain grab which are all armored, eject spiral and have better speed and range than Big Daddy's options generally. He has good crowd control tools, but they are so slow to execute it feels like he almost requires the opponent to have already been crowd controlled for him to really use his traps outside of combos. And while he has some moderate zone control through the use of those traps, etc., he is outshined by the zone control specialists. The real kicker for him is the lack of a strong accessible super - his best bet being his level 2. His down triangle is superb, but generally requires that he be the focus of both players for him to capture them both in the AOE (he pairs well with Sly for this and a couple other reasons). He also struggles a lot against players who competently defend. For example the down triangle tech trap is great, until the opponent just stands up blocking and punishes you for it. I also have never had a significantly skilled Big Daddy on my team so it's hard for me to comment as to his ability to provide team cohesion. I would say that his mobility is his greatest problem in a 2v2 situation, followed again by his limited Level 1.
Jak... well he is a weird one. He has some of the best mobility in the game, and you are right the fact that he is so good at staying off the ground helps with his survivability. But in a timed ranked match I haven't seen him land his LVL3 regularly, and his other supers are generally “bad”. His 1 is one of the worst in the game due to its range and inability to be confirmed into and his 2 only seems a little better (though this might be lack of knowledge on my part).
Both of these characters suffer from not being able to guarantee kills by themselves, and while in a team match your partner can help cover those gaps, a team comprised of two characters who don't need support (but can support each other) is probably better than a team of 2 who DO need support. And it may turn out that in the long run 2v2 is going to come down to ranking teams (like Marvel 2) I doubt we have the information necessary to even start that. As such I have really tried to keep my focus at a "standalone" viability perspective.
All of that said, it may be worth adding in something to track horizontal and vertical interruption options, though I fear it would change very little in the final tiers (it would mostly help the already great characters just off the top of my head) though it may provide a bit more distinction in the lower ranks.
Tiers? in this game? well I am not sure but let's give it a try
FOR WHAT I'VE SEEN
Ratcher and Clank
Jak and Daxter
but I still don't see how this game should have its tiers list
I do like this tier-list as it's pretty considerate. My two issues are just this from personal experience:
- 1. Heihachi would be switched with Jak. Heihachi's level 2 is pretty great, and my ability to combo with him builds AP pretty well.
- 2. E. Cole would be at least be the bottom of S-tier. He's got pretty solid kill confirms, but they're pretty well-known and thus I've been able to avoid being killed by E. Cole's simply by dodging their tactics more often. That mother**bleep**ing Sly, however, seems to be bad at nothing and outright outmatches me in the hands of skilled players nearly every time.
Otherwise this is pretty **bleep** good. At least a kudo.
This is for 2v2.
First off, thank you for the civilized discussion.
Secondly, I have to differ on a lot of points here and with all due respect, I think your assumptions come from the fact that there are so few competent Big Daddy players. For example, unless more than one opponent blocks it, Big Daddy's down triangle is virtually unpunishable assuming you don't do the last hit. Every other hit has more blockstun than Big Daddy has ending lag (His ending lag comes almost entirely on the last hit), meaning he can actually grab you to make himself safe if he ends it early, and since ending it early makes people caught in it go into hard knockdown, he needs at least 2 people blocking to punish it. You CAN grab break him, but that just resets the situation.
It is also much better for punishing whiffed attacks, or in 2v2 for punishing enemies for attacking allies, or tech chasing than for tech traps (Especially since people can block frame 1 upon airdodging into the ground).
You're right, Giga Punch has significantly more armor, and is the best move in the game overall, but it shines more in 1v1 since it sets up his own supers better than anything else.
Sly and Kratos however have priority, not super armor. Put against any actual super armor move (except BD's air side triangle, which for some reason is his only super armor move that loses to the chains) these moves will lose, whereas real super armor moves, such as Heihachi's palm strike where he hits in front and behind would just eat the blow and neither character flinches.
Big Daddy's super armor moves though, unlike other characters' (Except EC because it's freaking Giga Punch) super armor moves, combos into things, and not only that, they combo into disables, hard knockdowns/tech chases and supers.
His traps are mainly used to stop approaches and more importantly tech chase. The shock plasmid is the exception, which is also used in combos, to interrupt combos, and to set up your teammates supers (This move is surprisingly spammable).
His lack of a strong level 1 is really more of a hinderance in 1v1 than in 2v2. In 1v1 he can set up his ally's level one, chipping away at health bars, then decimate what's left with a level 2 or 3. You can in fact combo into level 2, and it's honestly rare to not get at least 2 kills with it, 3 happening rather often. Considering it takes all of 2 combos and a few stray hits to get to level 2, that's pretty ridiculous.
His main goal, and one at which he excels, is to keep his partner alive/make his partner have an easier time building meter/getting kills while building for his amazing 2 and 3.
Jak plays a similar role. He essentially never dies and he sets things up for his ally. Granted, for this reason he does do much better in stock or kill limit than in timed, but he works well in both since ideally he should be setting things up for his ally and slowly building to a level 3.