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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote

"Jak can do whatever he pleases to do" If that's not an exaggeration I will shoot myself.



Of course it's an exaggeration, I've used it to get my point accross. If Jak doesn't need to worry about kill confirms, he can play much more offensive, giving him an advantage. Because if Dante catches him with a move, it doesn't mean anything. To win a 3-stock match, he has to build up at least around 1400 AP. That's a lot obviously, giving Jak plenty of time to kill Dante. And since Jak is in the air a lot, Dante will get even less AP from his combos.



I'd like if you actually replied to my comment towards you and not one direct towards another person. Please go back and read it and reply if you must.
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

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Feb 4, 2013

Xarf wrote:

 

1. Why not do that when they get to a lvl 1? Why is the lvl 3 the only case? You should always be playing defensively and preventing your opponent from unleashing their super, even a lvl 1. 

2. FFA is a special case because FFA by nature is more chaotic and not as balanced or controlled as 2v2 or 1v1. 
3. they are easy on a technicle level, the game is only comprised of buttons and directions after all, but landing the attack or the setup that gets you that lvl1 can be very difficult especially when you are up against skilled players.

1. I highly disagree with that. All fighting games have a certain pace to their fights. Players are more offensive when they have high health bars, which allow them to not worry as much about their defense and take more risks for higher reward. But when they get low on health, that's when they start playing defensively and taking close to no risks.

 

All-Stars doesn't have traditional health bars, but still has that pace. People start to play defensively when their opponent is about to reach Level 3. And they are most likely to do their riskiest attacks in the first 30 seconds of the match, when everyone will only have either a very risky Level 1 or no Super at all. Playing a highly defensive game when your opponent has a Level 1, is basically the same as switching to a highly defensive game when your health bar is 3/4 full in a traditional fighter. You're limiting your own options for victory when you don't have to.

 

Also, in this game, playing defensively against someone with a Level 1 is near-pointless. Grabs take away VERY little AP, and like I said, L1's are so easy to dodge (even at the last second) that there's no need to focus too much on them.

 

2. Agreed.

 

3. Hardly. Confirms start with simple, split second face button attacks. L1's are usually easy by themselves to avoid because of their delayed startup, but expecting players to always dodge a face button attack to avoid dying is very unreasonable.

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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

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Feb 4, 2013

vizionary2012 wrote:

There is some pretty faulty logic in this thread, as in some really faulty logic. 

 

First of all I would like to address something Aylas Hero alluded to earlier in the thread, something along the lines of KC's are in the game therefore people are justified in using them. You are quite right in this regard, if it is in the game people have every right to use them as they see fit. However do not confuse "being in the game" with "being fair to all parties concerned." 

 

The fact of the matter is KC's are in the game, until Superbot decides otherwise. They can help you win, neglecting them is a conscious decision on your part. They are in the game so might as well use them, don't expect anyone else to be bound by the same sense of honour as yourself and omit them from their arsenal. 

 

However, I am staunchly AGAINST kill confirms, contrary to what it may appear.

 

As I said before confirms are in the game, use or neglect them at your own risk. The problem lies in the fact that certain confirms are vastly easier to execute than others. IF confirms were intended and that is a big if the sole purpose of them is to eable persons to confirm kills. That being said it is highly unbalanced to create characters with

a) more confirms than other characters

b) confirms that are far easier to pull off than others.

 

By doing this Superbot have made it so that some characters can confirm kills far easier than others. Combine this with the fact that usually the characters with multiple or easily executable confirms have a much smoother learning curve and you have a flawed system. IF confirms were intended then one cannot make some confirms easier and some far more impractical. That is essentially making some characters far easier to confirm kills with than others. It is hard for any user of Evil Cole or Raiden to argue that their confirms are of the same complexity as Big Daddy's or Sir Daniel's. In addition racking up AP with Raiden is perhaps the easiest thing to do and anyone can just chuck grenades with Evil Cole. There is not enough balance and that is the problem with the confirms. I am almost positive if some of the lesser used characters had simple, easily applicable confirms there would be far less complaints, if any. Either Superbot should

 

a) make every character with an easily applicable confirm (I personally would hate to see this)

b) make every characters with confirms difficult and all of high complexity thus ensuring those who do execute it are give the opportinuity to confirm

c) remove confirms together.

 

As of currently I do not use confirms, I agree that they are, not so much cheap but unbalanced. They can perhaps be annoying to avoid (I personally can't stand all the Fat Princess users who make a beeline in my direction and constantly keep jumping to hit me with that little flying man) but I avoid using  them at my own risk, I will not try and enforce my unwriten code of honour unto any other player, I know any Evil Cole user will giga punch me in a heartbeat...cmon..he's Evil however confirms ARE infact unbalanced and as such while it may be in the game it cannot be deemed fair, especially if you compare some of the characters with the better confirms to the ones with complex confirms and notice that in addition to their easier confirm they have other advantages. It isn't a surprise that the same characters are appearing over and over in the leaderboards, it isn't about personal preference (which is what it should be about ) it has devolved into which characters have the better confirms. 

 

 


Thank you. Thank you thank you THANK you! Fantastic post.

 

Also, option C would, I think, be the best way to go. Because it would eliminate the problem of KC's significantly lowering the appeal of Level 2's or 3's. Options A & B would only make this problem more obvious. It would just take a little longer with B.

 

Think about it, how long does performing a specific combo remain "difficult" once you've practiced it enough times? The only real difficulty is landing that first hit, because you have to predict your opponent's movements. But once you land that first hit, they're in hitstun, and the success of the combo depends entirely on you.

 

That's also why I feel that the difficulty of timing Level 1's will remain consistent even a year from now when tons of people will have "mastered" this game. Landing that one hit-kill (much like landing the first hit of a combo) will always be situational, because the success of the super depends on both your movements and your opponent's. So no matter how good at timing you are, you'll always have to be playing a guessing game about what your opponent will do next. Practice will just help you guess correctly more often than not.

 

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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote

"Jak can do whatever he pleases to do" If that's not an exaggeration I will shoot myself.



Of course it's an exaggeration, I've used it to get my point accross. If Jak doesn't need to worry about kill confirms, he can play much more offensive, giving him an advantage. Because if Dante catches him with a move, it doesn't mean anything. To win a 3-stock match, he has to build up at least around 1400 AP. That's a lot obviously, giving Jak plenty of time to kill Dante. And since Jak is in the air a lot, Dante will get even less AP from his combos.



I'd like if you actually replied to my comment towards you and not one direct towards another person. Please go back and read it and reply if you must.

I did that reply to you already, perhaps you overlooked it

The Jak Archives:
http://allstararena.com/threads/the-jak-archives.449/
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:


 

This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch. This is how high level play should be (my opinion). 

What would happen if KCs were removed in all modes? 

I'd like to give you a little example, why kill confirms are needed. Imagine Dante and Jak in a 1v1. I know this is an extreme of what I am going to tell you, but I think it works best in getting my point accross. Will Dante ever be able to kill Jak with his level 1 or 2? Most likely not. So he'll have to go for level 3 at least twice in a 3-stock match. That takes forever and is very boring. On top of that, if Jak doesn't have to be afraid of Dante hit confirming him into level 1 or 2, he can do whatever he pleases to do, giving Dante a horrible time.


This is just exaggeration.

 

I haven't explained my stance on this matter well enough as it seems. I don't like level 1 KCs but level 2 KCs are fine to me since some like Sackboy's or Drake's are always going to land a kill in the hands of a competent player.


But is there really that big of a difference between level 1 and level 2 confirms? Going for a level 2 KC just shifts the problem to a later stage of the game. For some character it's still virtually impossible to hit someone with their lvl 1. And to return to my example that still means that Jak doesn't have to worry at all about Dante killing him until he has reached level 2.


I can't believe I missed this Smiley Embarassed

 

There is a big difference as I explained. Many level 2s like Drake's or Sackboy's are unavoidable if used right, plus 2s cost more and are affected by grabs more. For the "problem" with level 1s not being able to hit, just use better judgment when using them, and SB could always adjust some if necessary.

 

And to the example. You also have to look at the other side of the coin in this match, will Jak get a kill with his 1? His 2 is horrible so count it out and his three is like Dante's, a two kill reward. But back to his 1, it's a bit better than Dante's but he'll still need to use it wisely like Dante will have to use his. If Jak slips up, Dante will be right behind him with a 1 and the opposite is true for Dante. So as soon as one hits his level 1 the other has to be cautious. And since Dante has a KC for his 2 (actually a couple good ones) he doesn't have to go for a 3 twice, this also puts more pressure on Jak.

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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

[ Edited ]
Feb 4, 2013

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote

"Jak can do whatever he pleases to do" If that's not an exaggeration I will shoot myself.



Of course it's an exaggeration, I've used it to get my point accross. If Jak doesn't need to worry about kill confirms, he can play much more offensive, giving him an advantage. Because if Dante catches him with a move, it doesn't mean anything. To win a 3-stock match, he has to build up at least around 1400 AP. That's a lot obviously, giving Jak plenty of time to kill Dante. And since Jak is in the air a lot, Dante will get even less AP from his combos.


EDIT: I messed up and made a new post instead of editing an old one. I'm losing it.Smiley Surprised
My bad
I just felt like that statement was to over the top.
Anyway, to be fair I did explain what you just wrote in my previous post to you. 
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 5, 2013

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:


 

This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch. This is how high level play should be (my opinion). 

What would happen if KCs were removed in all modes? 

I'd like to give you a little example, why kill confirms are needed. Imagine Dante and Jak in a 1v1. I know this is an extreme of what I am going to tell you, but I think it works best in getting my point accross. Will Dante ever be able to kill Jak with his level 1 or 2? Most likely not. So he'll have to go for level 3 at least twice in a 3-stock match. That takes forever and is very boring. On top of that, if Jak doesn't have to be afraid of Dante hit confirming him into level 1 or 2, he can do whatever he pleases to do, giving Dante a horrible time.


This is just exaggeration.

 

I haven't explained my stance on this matter well enough as it seems. I don't like level 1 KCs but level 2 KCs are fine to me since some like Sackboy's or Drake's are always going to land a kill in the hands of a competent player.


But is there really that big of a difference between level 1 and level 2 confirms? Going for a level 2 KC just shifts the problem to a later stage of the game. For some character it's still virtually impossible to hit someone with their lvl 1. And to return to my example that still means that Jak doesn't have to worry at all about Dante killing him until he has reached level 2.


I can't believe I missed this Smiley Embarassed

 

There is a big difference as I explained. Many level 2s like Drake's or Sackboy's are unavoidable if used right, plus 2s cost more and are affected by grabs more. For the "problem" with level 1s not being able to hit, just use better judgment when using them, and SB could always adjust some if necessary.

 

And to the example. You also have to look at the other side of the coin in this match, will Jak get a kill with his 1? His 2 is horrible so count it out and his three is like Dante's, a two kill reward. But back to his 1, it's a bit better than Dante's but he'll still need to use it wisely like Dante will have to use his. If Jak slips up, Dante will be right behind him with a 1 and the opposite is true for Dante. So as soon as one hits his level 1 the other has to be cautious. And since Dante has a KC for his 2 (actually a couple good ones) he doesn't have to go for a 3 twice, this also puts more pressure on Jak.


That sounds reasonable, but would the game really change that much if only lvl 2s could hit confirm? Supers thrown out based on setups and reads are much more effective, when the opponent doesn't expect them because he expects the kill confirm instead. That means if the kill confirms for lvl 1s are taken away, everyone would watch out for the setups therefore making it hard to land them. Maybe then the game will get a bit boring until the first players reaches his 2. And when that happens, it's the same situation we have now with lvl 1s.

 

The main reason I'm defending confirms is because I believe it would terribly srew up the balancing if they were removed. Superbot put them in and the balancing is based on them, so they are considered to be fair. It would take months to rework the hole game. This morning I was looking at this video, showing Dabuz (Evil Cole) vs Lizardheart (Ratchet) and I considered it pretty balanced although Evil Cole has a lot more practical hit confirms for his 1 than Ratchet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZvrCowR58

The Jak Archives:
http://allstararena.com/threads/the-jak-archives.449/
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 5, 2013

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:


 

This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch. This is how high level play should be (my opinion). 

What would happen if KCs were removed in all modes? 

I'd like to give you a little example, why kill confirms are needed. Imagine Dante and Jak in a 1v1. I know this is an extreme of what I am going to tell you, but I think it works best in getting my point accross. Will Dante ever be able to kill Jak with his level 1 or 2? Most likely not. So he'll have to go for level 3 at least twice in a 3-stock match. That takes forever and is very boring. On top of that, if Jak doesn't have to be afraid of Dante hit confirming him into level 1 or 2, he can do whatever he pleases to do, giving Dante a horrible time.


This is just exaggeration.

 

I haven't explained my stance on this matter well enough as it seems. I don't like level 1 KCs but level 2 KCs are fine to me since some like Sackboy's or Drake's are always going to land a kill in the hands of a competent player.


But is there really that big of a difference between level 1 and level 2 confirms? Going for a level 2 KC just shifts the problem to a later stage of the game. For some character it's still virtually impossible to hit someone with their lvl 1. And to return to my example that still means that Jak doesn't have to worry at all about Dante killing him until he has reached level 2.


I can't believe I missed this Smiley Embarassed

 

There is a big difference as I explained. Many level 2s like Drake's or Sackboy's are unavoidable if used right, plus 2s cost more and are affected by grabs more. For the "problem" with level 1s not being able to hit, just use better judgment when using them, and SB could always adjust some if necessary.

 

And to the example. You also have to look at the other side of the coin in this match, will Jak get a kill with his 1? His 2 is horrible so count it out and his three is like Dante's, a two kill reward. But back to his 1, it's a bit better than Dante's but he'll still need to use it wisely like Dante will have to use his. If Jak slips up, Dante will be right behind him with a 1 and the opposite is true for Dante. So as soon as one hits his level 1 the other has to be cautious. And since Dante has a KC for his 2 (actually a couple good ones) he doesn't have to go for a 3 twice, this also puts more pressure on Jak.


That sounds reasonable, but would the game really change that much if only lvl 2s could hit confirm? Supers thrown out based on setups and reads are much more effective, when the opponent doesn't expect them because he expects the kill confirm instead. That means if the kill confirms for lvl 1s are taken away, everyone would watch out for the setups therefore making it hard to land them. Maybe then the game will get a bit boring until the first players reaches his 2. And when that happens, it's the same situation we have now with lvl 1s.

 

The main reason I'm defending confirms is because I believe it would terribly srew up the balancing if they were removed. Superbot put them in and the balancing is based on them, so they are considered to be fair. It would take months to rework the hole game. This morning I was looking at this video, showing Dabuz (Evil Cole) vs Lizardheart (Ratchet) and I considered it pretty balanced although Evil Cole has a lot more practical hit confirms for his 1 than Ratchet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZvrCowR58


 

Not exactly sure what your saying in the first paragraph. But the game wouldn't be boring until 2s because there is still the threat of a 1.

 

That's a valid point, something needs to be done about balancing and KCs, just what will SB decide to do?

 

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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 5, 2013

How to make thread that gets tons of replies

1. Name thread: "What do you think about Kill Confirms" or "Kill Confirms are unskillful" or "Why Kill Confirms are fair"

2. Get tons of replies

3. ??????????

4. Profit Smiley Very Happy

 

O_O

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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 5, 2013

Aylas_Hero wrote:

FredFai wrote:

I guess there's no end to this hot topic. Until Superbot address this, the community will be continually divided by this issue. *Looking at couples of page and other threads* Told you so. 

 

I have a idea! Aylas_Hero, why don't you set up a "NO KC" tourney?  Hey, I'm not against KCs, but just "easy" and "unpunishable" kind of these, such as Evil Cole's giga punch (I know I can block and hit him afterward). I know it can be a hassle and handicap for some, but let's call it a experiment to see how it's going. Then the participants can share their opinions, and there you have the HARD evidence. You can invite some of the supporter and opposers together. That would be interesting. It would be interesting but hard to enforce. It is a curious idea though, I admit I will consider it. Thank for considering my idea! I'm sure we will get valuable results. I suppose you should get honorable players that you can trust to make the tourney working. Maybe we can discuss what's allowed and what's not. 

 

For about 2 months, I have been playing custom "NO KC" matches with the same good old friends because some of them didn't like kill confirms. So I agreed not to KC, and the atmosphere is certainly different.

 

Non-KC stock matches

 

Pros

 

- less stress and rage

- lv. 2 and lv. 3 become more valuable

- more tendency to use the environment to your advantage One could argue that having KCs make you do that moreso or at least the same, do to the fact the environment can mess up confirms. Also, many people use the environment to manage kills in 1v1 already. I suppose thatj's true. I did use the environment in 1 vs 1 with my PaRappa. It's just that it's more likely in non-KC matches.

- More variety of styles and combos

- Overall semi-causal fun

- Stay true to the "first days" of the game and still be competitve The AI used confirms sometimes in the beginning, we might have just not known what they were yet. I thought in all other fighter games, AI always have "auto kill-confirm", but ok. We used to have more causal fun on the first days of the game before the KC was invented. 

- Can show true skills even if handicapped. 

 

Cons

 

- boring and slow-paced when it comes to 1 vs 1 if no one has lv. 2 or more. That's a BIG problem. People don't like boring. Smiley Tongue It could last more than 3 minutes. :/

- A missed lv. 1 can make you look like an angry idiot.

- Spamming and matchups are still problems. 

- Unpredictable (it can be a good thing though)

 

KC stock matches

 

Pros

 

- entertaining, fast-paced, advanced matches to watch

- more thinking and planning

- very competitve

- lv. 1 become more valuable. 

- Predictable I can't agree with that one. 1v1 can be VERY unpredictable in nature when the level of play gets high enough. Scratch that. Agreed. I had no idea what could happen in that match between pb_mal and Asis. 

 

Cons

 

- more stressful and rage

- frowned upon when it comes to easy and unpunishable kind of KCs. 

- Spamming can become more reliable in this type than in non-KC type. Spam, which usually means using the same move over and over is VERY predictable. With KCs predictability is certain death. Well, I thought if you have an effective spam, then you would gain lv. 1 faster, and KC right away. Getting to lv. 2 or lv. 3 may require more than spamming. 

- Matchups can be cruel and unequal. For example, Jak vs Evil Cole. The same thing happens WITHOUT KCs sometimes too. I could say that high tier characters are more likely to win against low tier characters in KC matches than in non-KC matches. 

 

This is all I got in my head. I don't know if I still have some more left. You know... with the super system, there will always be kill kill confirms. Think about it. The other figher games have similar concept: moves/combos into supers. I'm sure Kat and Emmett will have kill confirms soon. That is, if Superbot want them to be the way they are. Although I'm not against KC entirely, I prefer just unrealiable setups like PaRappa's and Sir Dan's.  PaRappa actually has some insane tech once you take a look at him, a basically infinite loop that could KC just to start that is decent and reliable even. And Dan also has more reliable confirms as well. We have to keep experimenting before we 100% say we know all the confirms and tech a character has, and many new things are being explored every day! Like as an example, Ratchet's throw confirm is escapable by almost the entirty of the cast! That's a big deal. We proved a "confirm" isn't one! This changes everything we now about it! Do tell, please. See how I asked? Everybody want to get easier and reliable ways to get better and win. I suppose that's in our human nature? Somehow our morals can get in our way. Seriously, do tell unless it's somewhat a forbidden godly OP technique for PaRappa or Sir Dan. Smiley Tongue


Also, you get a Kudo for actually presenting and argument that had some good sense to it and added to the discussion. I like thatt. Smiley Happy

 

I added my comments, though you present a good argumenent, I think I disagree a little bit.


 

 

Ho Ho Ha Ha
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