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Wastelander
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013
His argument is not defeating itself. He's saying that if Plan A is not working out, people will try the next best thing.

Yes, Level 3s pretty much guarantee kills, but there's much more risk involved in reaching Level 3 than there is in earning and executing a Level 1.

Level 3 take much more time to build. Most often, they are not very viable in timed matches. Even in Stock or Kill Count, during the time it takes to reach Level 3, you have to play defensively because if the opponent is smart enough, they will be gunning after you and trying their hardest to prevent you from unleashing it. Meanwhile, you have to dodge other Supers and try not to get killed yourself so you still even have the chance to get there.

People may rely on Level 3 over Level 1 in the extreme case that their opponent(s) constantly evade repeated attempts back-to-back and the person is just desperate to get those kills (guaranteed), so he'll take that risk.

This is more often not the case. Level 1s with Kill Confirms are very cheap (cost wise), which means that earning Level 1 meter takes very little time. Grabs also don't hurt as much. Even if an opponent grabs you, you only lose a very small fraction of AP. AP that you can easily get back in a couple hits or one combo. Kill Confirms secure guaranteed kills more reliably than some Level 3s since skilled players can dodge those Supers as well.

Kill Confirms are definitely easy to pull off. All you have to do is land a specific attack. And to do that, all you have to do is not be so predictable against skilled opponents. Chances are, if the opponent is skilled enough to constantly dodge the Level 1s, then the one he's fighting against has no chance at even reaching his Level 3.
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Survivor
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

Aylas_Hero wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

Did you think we were talking about confirms the whole time? I was just talking in general. However I will explain why.

 

Currently most supers go like this:

 

1) Cheap and safe to use, 1-3 kills. No point in grabbing to get rid of.

 

2) Cost more than 1, safe to use, 1-3 kills. Mild grab loss.

 

3) Cost a lot, safe to use, 3-6 kills. Hardest to get because of grabs.

 

Level 1s seem the best. Why go for a 3 when a 1 is safe, the cheapest, and is safe from grabs, or even a 2 for that matter?

 

EDIT: changed the wording a bit, oh, and post 1,212! 

 

 


In a game with people at high levels, I've seen a lot of level 2 actually. When the game is really running that hard and close, you'd be surprised how hard it is to use that level 1 confirm. Sometimes, it's so impossible you give in and go to level 2, and sometimes it's even WORSE and you are forced to go to level 3 out of desperation, even a cinematic one just to get that kill. A lot of the top matches in my tournament get THAT close. 

 

A lot of the problems people face is in FFA. We have to remeber we have THREE game modes in this game, this game isn't ONLY FFA. I know level 3 should be the big thing in FFA but FFA just wont ever be an actual competitive game mode, there are too many variables. 2v2 and 1v1 are, and confirms while used aren't as easy to manage there. I admit it's an issue in FFA and doesn't make sense, but trying to totally balance based on FFA ruins the rest of the game. All game modes must be taken into account. Without confirms my 1v1 tournaments would have matches going for hours at a time and I'm serious about that. Throwing out a random super is MUCH to easy to avoid at a high level.


 

This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch. This is how high level play should be (my opinion). 

What would happen if KCs were removed in all modes? 

I'd like to give you a little example, why kill confirms are needed. Imagine Dante and Jak in a 1v1. I know this is an extreme of what I am going to tell you, but I think it works best in getting my point accross. Will Dante ever be able to kill Jak with his level 1 or 2? Most likely not. So he'll have to go for level 3 at least twice in a 3-stock match. That takes forever and is very boring. On top of that, if Jak doesn't have to be afraid of Dante hit confirming him into level 1 or 2, he can do whatever he pleases to do, giving Dante a horrible time.


This is just exaggeration.

 

I haven't explained my stance on this matter well enough as it seems. I don't like level 1 KCs but level 2 KCs are fine to me since some like Sackboy's or Drake's are always going to land a kill in the hands of a competent player.


No it honestly ISN'T an exageration.

 

And that level 3 you want to pull off? I've had games where a level 3 did NOT GET A SINGLE KILL in 1v1. I'm dead serious, it happens often enough. 

 

"This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch."

 

Well to start you have a nasty attitude about this. But to get back to an argument I can definately pull off my level 1 when my opponent is being attacked by someone else is a 1v1. OH WAIT! :smileysurprised:

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Wastelander
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

GaleDaWindMasta wrote:

Level 3 take much more time to build. Most often, they are not very viable in timed matches. Even in Stock or Kill Count, during the time it takes to reach Level 3,

1.you have to play defensively because if the opponent is smart enough, they will be gunning after you and trying their hardest to prevent you from unleashing it.
2.Meanwhile, you have to dodge other Supers and try not to get killed yourself so you still even have the chance to get there.


3.Kill Confirms are definitely easy to pull off. All you have to do is land a specific attack. And to do that, all you have to do is not be so predictable against skilled opponents. Chances are, if the opponent is skilled enough to constantly dodge the Level 1s, then the one he's fighting against has no chance at even reaching his Level 3.
1. Why not do that when they get to a lvl 1? Why is the lvl 3 the only case? You should always be playing defensively and preventing your opponent from unleashing their super, even a lvl 1. 
2. FFA is a special case because FFA by nature is more chaotic and not as balanced or controlled as 2v2 or 1v1. 
3. they are easy on a technicle level, the game is only comprised of buttons and directions after all, but landing the attack or the setup that gets you that lvl1 can be very difficult especially when you are up against skilled players.

 

 

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Wastelander
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

Xarf wrote:
1. Why not do that when they get to a lvl 1? Why is the lvl 3 the only case? You should always be playing defensively and preventing your opponent from unleashing their super, even a lvl 1. 
2. FFA is a special case because FFA by nature is more chaotic and not as balanced or controlled as 2v2 or 1v1. 
3. they are easy on a technicle level, the game is only comprised of buttons and directions after all, but landing the attack or the setup that gets you that lvl1 can be very difficult especially when you are up against skilled players.

 

 


I know you're just trying to have an intelligent conversation, but it just can't help but feel as though you're arguing for the sake of doing so.

 

1. Yes. You should always be defensive while also preventing your opponent from getting their Supers off. And people do this. However, when you or an opponent is trying to reach Level 3, the situation is much more dire since Level 3 Supers more than likely guarantee at least one kill/death. Problem is, Kill Confirms do the same, but at a lesser extent of risk involved. You're a higher priority target when you're attempting to reach Level 3. In FFA siutations, the match can become a 3v1 once they notice you're halfway past Level 2. In which case, you would definitely have to play much more defensively than you would if you only had a Level 1 and were a lower priority.

 

2. I speak in a general sense. I try to mention things that apply to all modes. But I'll expand for the 1v1 situation. Kill Confirms completely negate the point in even having Level 3. While Level 3s can guarantee kills (possibly multiple) in a 1v1, the time and efort put into reaching that point would be better off spent trying to Kill Confirm into 4 (educated guess, could be more) Level 1s since they're so cheap (again, cost wise) and simple to put off.

 

3. The difficulty that comes in landing a Kill Confirm is the same difficulty that comes in landing any move in general. Kill Confirms are easier to see coming since everyone knows what moves Kill Confirm now and how they look, but they're still a very simple concept. Just because your opponent is wise/skilled enough to avoid a couple Kill Confirm attempts, that likely isn't going to last forever. You're opponent may be skilled, but that does not mean that you are not. If you're skilled enough, you know how to make yourself less predictable and catch your opponent off guard with a Kill Confirm. You just have to land that one move, and you're set.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

Aylas_Hero wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

DarkErazor wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

Aylas_Hero wrote:

King_Cobra97 wrote:

Did you think we were talking about confirms the whole time? I was just talking in general. However I will explain why.

 

Currently most supers go like this:

 

1) Cheap and safe to use, 1-3 kills. No point in grabbing to get rid of.

 

2) Cost more than 1, safe to use, 1-3 kills. Mild grab loss.

 

3) Cost a lot, safe to use, 3-6 kills. Hardest to get because of grabs.

 

Level 1s seem the best. Why go for a 3 when a 1 is safe, the cheapest, and is safe from grabs, or even a 2 for that matter?

 

EDIT: changed the wording a bit, oh, and post 1,212! 

 

 


In a game with people at high levels, I've seen a lot of level 2 actually. When the game is really running that hard and close, you'd be surprised how hard it is to use that level 1 confirm. Sometimes, it's so impossible you give in and go to level 2, and sometimes it's even WORSE and you are forced to go to level 3 out of desperation, even a cinematic one just to get that kill. A lot of the top matches in my tournament get THAT close. 

 

A lot of the problems people face is in FFA. We have to remeber we have THREE game modes in this game, this game isn't ONLY FFA. I know level 3 should be the big thing in FFA but FFA just wont ever be an actual competitive game mode, there are too many variables. 2v2 and 1v1 are, and confirms while used aren't as easy to manage there. I admit it's an issue in FFA and doesn't make sense, but trying to totally balance based on FFA ruins the rest of the game. All game modes must be taken into account. Without confirms my 1v1 tournaments would have matches going for hours at a time and I'm serious about that. Throwing out a random super is MUCH to easy to avoid at a high level.


 

This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch. This is how high level play should be (my opinion). 

What would happen if KCs were removed in all modes? 

I'd like to give you a little example, why kill confirms are needed. Imagine Dante and Jak in a 1v1. I know this is an extreme of what I am going to tell you, but I think it works best in getting my point accross. Will Dante ever be able to kill Jak with his level 1 or 2? Most likely not. So he'll have to go for level 3 at least twice in a 3-stock match. That takes forever and is very boring. On top of that, if Jak doesn't have to be afraid of Dante hit confirming him into level 1 or 2, he can do whatever he pleases to do, giving Dante a horrible time.


This is just exaggeration.

 

I haven't explained my stance on this matter well enough as it seems. I don't like level 1 KCs but level 2 KCs are fine to me since some like Sackboy's or Drake's are always going to land a kill in the hands of a competent player.


No it honestly ISN'T an exageration.

 

And that level 3 you want to pull off? I've had games where a level 3 did NOT GET A SINGLE KILL in 1v1. I'm dead serious, it happens often enough. 

 

"This is just laughable. What happened to using level 2s and 3s? People should use 1s smarter, use them when someone is getting pummeled or predict the moves and movements to catch them in your 1, instead of hurrdurr giga punch."

 

Well to start you have a nasty attitude about this. But to get back to an argument I can definately pull off my level 1 when my opponent is being attacked by someone else is a 1v1. OH WAIT! :smileysurprised:


"Jak can do whatever he pleases to do" If that's not an exaggeration I will shoot myself.

 

 

 

 

"And that level 3 you want to pull off? I've had games where a level 3 did NOT GET A SINGLE KILL in 1v1. I'm dead serious, it happens often enough." 

 

You have to admit level 3s are the easiest to get kills with out off all supers.

 

 

 

 

"Well to start you have a nasty attitude about this. But to get back to an argument I can definately pull off my level 1 when my opponent is being attacked by someone else is a 1v1. OH WAIT! :smileysurprised:"

 

I'm sorry if I come off like that, I'm not trying. BTW I'm taking your CAPLOCK as you yelling/raging, please tell me if otherwise.

 

Again talking in general:smileyfrustrated:,but you ignored the valid section of that sentence for 1v1s- "predict their moves and movements to catch them in your 1" 

 

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

Raidens

Forward Dash in the Air

or

Forward square

 

Fat Ho's

Diagnal warrior

or

swap you in the wand

 

Rachets
Grab where he pits you in the corner for no escape

or he goes in the corner spits you on the ground

 

Dante

If the player can correctly master his cancel move

 

Evil cole

nuetral circle giga punch

 

heihachi's

forward square(sometimes escapeable)

 

sackboys

forward triangle head butt move

or

static pad

 

Radecs

Forward square level 2 kill confirm

 

Nariko's

lvl 2 set ups where she throws you and you automatically roll back and then uses her level 2

and I think she has a level 1 set up too..

 


sweet tooths

nuetral square in the air

 

 

The fact that when all the people do is just spam the kill confirm kill, it's just takes no skill and they're trash. Especialy Sweet tooth, Raiden, Fat princes and Evil cole(when they just block the whole time)

 

You can't be off guard with these people.

They're all easy to avoid but it's just annoying

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Survivor
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

GaleDaWindMasta wrote:

Xarf wrote:
1. Why not do that when they get to a lvl 1? Why is the lvl 3 the only case? You should always be playing defensively and preventing your opponent from unleashing their super, even a lvl 1. 
2. FFA is a special case because FFA by nature is more chaotic and not as balanced or controlled as 2v2 or 1v1. 
3. they are easy on a technicle level, the game is only comprised of buttons and directions after all, but landing the attack or the setup that gets you that lvl1 can be very difficult especially when you are up against skilled players.

 

 


I know you're just trying to have an intelligent conversation, but it just can't help but feel as though you're arguing for the sake of doing so.

 

1. Yes. You should always be defensive while also preventing your opponent from getting their Supers off. And people do this. However, when you or an opponent is trying to reach Level 3, the situation is much more dire since Level 3 Supers more than likely guarantee at least one kill/death. Problem is, Kill Confirms do the same, but at a lesser extent of risk involved. You're a higher priority target when you're attempting to reach Level 3. In FFA siutations, the match can become a 3v1 once they notice you're halfway past Level 2. In which case, you would definitely have to play much more defensively than you would if you only had a Level 1 and were a lower priority.

 

2. I speak in a general sense. I try to mention things that apply to all modes. But I'll expand for the 1v1 situation. Kill Confirms completely negate the point in even having Level 3. While Level 3s can guarantee kills (possibly multiple) in a 1v1, the time and efort put into reaching that point would be better off spent trying to Kill Confirm into 4 (educated guess, could be more) Level 1s since they're so cheap (again, cost wise) and simple to put off.

 

3. The difficulty that comes in landing a Kill Confirm is the same difficulty that comes in landing any move in general. Kill Confirms are easier to see coming since everyone knows what moves Kill Confirm now and how they look, but they're still a very simple concept. Just because your opponent is wise/skilled enough to avoid a couple Kill Confirm attempts, that likely isn't going to last forever. You're opponent may be skilled, but that does not mean that you are not. If you're skilled enough, you know how to make yourself less predictable and catch your opponent off guard with a Kill Confirm. You just have to land that one move, and you're set.


Number 2 is 100% wrong. Many people and characters go for the level 3 on purpose in 1v1. Some people even head for level 2 on purpose as well. 

 

They all STILL get used, confirms or not.

 

Other then that you just argued pretty much as to why to KEEP them on accident. :smileytongue:

 

Risk and reward, a big part of fighting games. Always has been, always will be.

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

I feel there is a gap in skill level between some of the people arguing. I see attempts at what would be good ideas, but if you played against some very good kill confirming people would realize that you still don't only go for the level 1 kill confirm. Of course if you throw out an attack and it lands to guarantee it, you are going to do it. But otherwise you have to just land what you are allowed by the opponent. I play fat princess and i know the character very well, i've won at ayla's 1v1 events, and still i am using my level 2 for 2 kills 1v1 very often. I also play kratos who has level 1 and level 2 confirms and I nearly always go for a level 3 each match. Kill confirms provide a little scare into the opponent to not get hit by a certain attack, and allow you to make better reads on your opponent because of that.

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Wastelander
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

Feb 4, 2013

GaleDaWindMasta wrote:

 

I know you're just trying to have an intelligent conversation, but it just can't help but feel as though you're arguing for the sake of doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can assure you that the only reason I am here is because I believe that some of the points you make are wrong, nothing against you personally. Trust me when I say that I get no enjoyment out of this conversation which is why im going to take a break and discuss other things on this forum for a while. I usually never speak too much on the forums and I just decided to be a little more vocal than I usually am. 

 

I can see why you would think that KCs are cheep and I hope that you have taken what I said(and Aylas and others who have voiced their opinions clearly) to heart and given some thought. I personally hope that Superbot  flat out tells us whats up about the KCs or finds some sort of compromise between the two sides.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: It takes no skill to kill confirm

[ Edited ]
Feb 4, 2013

DarkErazor wrote:

IceColdKilla44 wrote:

One thing that I've seen kill confirmers do online very consistently is that once they keep failing at their kill confirms (people keep air camping or they keep getting hit out of their Level 1's), they immediately go for Level 3's.

 

What that basically means is that when they want to get the easiest kills possible, they would rather choose a Level 1 before even thinking of a Level 3. You can't tell me that there's nothing wrong with a mechanic in the game that allows for a Level ONE to be easier to pull off than a Level THREE...

 


You basically stated that level 3s are easier to hit than level 1. Because if that wasn't the case, why should they change their strategies? They could just keep going for level 1s.


I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say?

 

In terms of getting kills, Level 1's are low in cost & high in risk (hard kills). Level 3's are high in cost and low in risk(easy kills).

 

But when you add KC to a Level 1, it becomes easier to get kills with that than it is to fight well enough to build up enough meter for a Level 3. That's the imbalance; Kill confirms make Level 1's low cost and LOW risk. Meaning there's no need whatsoever to go to a Level 2 or 3.

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