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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 17, 2013

@Aylas_Hero

-_- Im not trying to be mean either, and you're not being mean either.. lol (This is all friendly..)

This game hasn't had your tournament finished to determine the tier list. Every tier list made until know is based on ranked matches. (Not 1vs1) And the ones that are of 1vs1 are opinion and fan made. Until there is evidence (video, news, etc..) that a high lvl player against another high lvl player (same skill) beats the most op character in this game with the most crappy undersused character, THEN will I truly be convinced that this game is a-okay for 1vs1. (Probably i'll end up seeing this after some balance and tweaks are made to this game.)

But seriously even the creators say that this game is incomplete and not ready for tournament play. They wanted the game to be ready for the SoCal Regionals. But seeing as how now the update will be made on Feb. 12, they didn't make it... Smiley Sad Really bummed cuz I really wanted to see that...

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Survivor
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 17, 2013
I mean tier list structure in general.

I have never seen a tier list that has a match up for a character as 100:0, have you?

Even if the matchup is 99:1 that 1 is there. Any character could win in a high level match in ANY game. It may not be easy, but that doesn't mean 1v1 is broken either.
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

[ Edited ]
Jan 17, 2013

Ok, ok... You're basically saying what i've been saying in other words... This game isn't 100% broken, but it needs it tweaks and balance adjudgements for it to be played completely well in 1vs1. Sure some fights are posible, but when a Jak is trying hard to earn his AP against a Sly that never fails his counter, when this Jak finally reaches 1 bar, 2 or 3, he's been already killed 2 times in a 3 stock battle or has already lost. (This is all saying that they are both equally skilled) When this Jak finally reaches his lvl 1 or 2 he gets one kill (or easily misses) and he is still on a disadvantage only if he reaches a lvl3 will he be close. And after that he attacks the Sly the Sly does his counter and then does his lvl1. BOOOM! End game, Sly won, even though the Jak is equally skilled he still lost. The odds should never be 99-1, it should be 50-50 or 75-25, but never so low. This is what I mean about this game, im not saying it sucks or anything im only saying it doesnt work well or fair in a 1vs1 situation.

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Survivor
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 17, 2013
How long have you been in the competitive fighting game scene>

Every fighting game does not have all characters 100% balanced to beat each other.

At least this game has it so that every character has a good counter so all characters CAN be used in 1v1.
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

[ Edited ]
Jan 17, 2013

I've played fighting games since the first Mortal Kombat came out....

This game has a counter for every character? You're saying it, only one character is fully capable of beating another. Yet nobody else is capable of beating this character except for that counter. This is exactly the situation I found myself in this game with. There are characters I wish to use because of their history their background yet I can't use him cause i'll lose and hey I might know wich character beats another but I don't know how to use everyone in this game at high lvl. And in the 1vs1 situation I choose my character, the guy im against changes his to fight mine, I change mine to fight his, and this cycle would keep on going until I say forget about it im gonna use this guy cuz I like him, he chooses the counter to my character and i'll obviously lose. This should'nt be this way in a good balanced 1vs1 game.

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Survivor
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 17, 2013
No, I'm not saying everyone has has only one counter. I'm saying they have AT LEAST one. Many characters have several counters!

But guess what? That's how almost all 1v1 games work. There are also stages in this game that change match ups just by fighting on them. Learn those stages and pick them to fight on and you'll do even better.
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 17, 2013

This game still requires a lot of tweaks and changes for it to be able to be played in 1vs1. I see we aren't convincing each other to eventually agree. I grew tired and bored of this discussion, I know you did too. Lol

 

Something we can both agree! I love this game no matter the stupid things it has and i'm really looking foward to your 2vs2 tournament!

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

[ Edited ]
Jan 17, 2013

enano_javi wrote:

@Fromundaman

In UMVC3 I use the weirdest team EVER! And I still win, I am a High lvl player in marvel boy and let me tell you that in this game ur right the assist and x-factor system allows anyone to win, and by that I mean ANYONE. You surely don't know about marvel much cuz PR Balrog always tries to use some low tier characters and puts them in high lvl play. You surely didn't see the game after EVO of PR Balrog vs F.Champ, were F.Champ used the same team he always does with Phoenix and PR Balrog used Wolverine/Felicia/R.Raccoon he won, ok? A lot of times, he beat the best guy at marvel with that team. I sometimes use C.Viper, wich is a character that is sometimes really hard to zone in with and against a Hawkeye/Vergil/Doom, its almost impossible to ever get close to them but I did and I won anyways. Sure some games require skill, but not PSASBR when anyone spends 10min in practice with Kratos and u already know every big AP combo there is to him. In this game a very skilled Radec will never win against a Sly with the same skill. And you said it yourself when you talked about that Ganon vs MK, "He won about as many as he lost" and he won the tournament when MK was banned. You're proving my point about that balance in Brawl, it was only a balanced game after they banned MK. You said it yourself only after MK was banned did his Ganon skill prove to let him win a tournament. I never even brought Brawl into this conversation, it was used as an example for an impossible situation of a bad matchup when I never understood why Ganon is a horrible character when a Bowser vs MK seems like a much more horrible matchup.







Okay, a few things... 1st off, I mentioned Hsien-Ko for a reason... Most UMVC3 teams can work with the right assists and X-factors, but there are characters that NEVER win. I mean, in Vanilla (And after as well, but they all got buffed so doesn't fit in what I'm trying to say) I was using Cap/Skrull/Chris and actually winning with this! I've placed in UMVC3 tournaments before (Not many though as I worked a lot at the time, not to mention there were a couple guys around here I just couldn't beat). That being said, I have yet to ever hear of anyone winning a major tournament with Hsien-Ko, or Thor, Hulk or even Chris. You see combo videos of them, you see people use them well, you even see some strong ones compete, but they NEVER seem to win at high level tournament play.

Now how can you not say that the game is incredibly matchup driven though when ChrisG ran the metagame for so long with Morrigan/Doom? It eventually started getting beaten BECAUSE people went out of their way to find strategies against it. Same with Zero. Same with Pheonix in vanilla, yet she still dominated until she got nerfed. This is how fighting games are. Someone finds something "OP", people find counter-strategies. Some matchups stay bad, some don't.

Yes, there are people who do things with weird characters, but here's the thing that helped MVC3 out tremendously: Multiple characters meant you didn't HAVE to do any sort of stupid matchup. If you still own UMVC3, turn it on right now and try to play a match of Chris vs Wesker without swapping characters or using assists. In a 1v1 situation against a Wesker who knows the matchup, Chris can't do anything (I've had this happen many times running Chris as anchor for so long until I finally dropped him for Strange). Super jump>gunshot>teleports make him completely safe so long as he stays at least half screen away from Chris.


Matchups in Marvel aren't better; you're just not locked into them.

Also lol @ using C. Viper as an example of making a weird team work... She's such a good character...



For the record, I wasn't saying Brawl was balanced. Not by a LONG shot. I was just pointing out that a sufficiently skilled Ganon can in fact win, even though it's pretty ridiculously hard.




That being said all games have bad matchups, and it is in fact the mark of a good fighting game if you HAVE to get a secondary. I don't know why people fight this. If you want every matchup to be even, then you need to play a game with identical characters (Like Divekick! Wait, that has multiple characters who don't all do the same thing either? FUUUUUUUUUU....).
If you're playing a character who can beat anyone in the cast, that means that you are playing someone with equal or better matchups with everyone in the game.

This was the case of Metaknight in Brawl, and it is a clear sign of bad balancing. For every positive matchup a character has, the opposing character gets a bad one. Without bad matchups, a character has no downside and begins swarming the tournament scenes since it's so much easier to win with that one person. This game is looking like every character has AT LEAST one bad matchup (Game is still young), and not just with the "high tier" characters. Most matchups in this game are mild disadvantage in one direction or another (I mean falling between 40-60 and 60-40 ratios.). This game is a lot more balanced than people make it out to be.

Unfortunately, as soon as people hit a bad matchup OR a matchup they don't understand they cry for nerfs instead of trying to find counter-strategies in this game..

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

[ Edited ]
Jan 18, 2013

@Fromundaman

 

OMG! Dude, you could've written less..( now i hav to do the same.... sigh') First of all who in the world plays UMVC3 with one character? Marvel's system doesn't go that way, so you can't really say its unbalanced because of that, that is a very big error. And any character can win in Marvel, it all depends on the assist and x-factor use. PR Balrog was about to beat the whole team that F.Champ had with R. Raccoon on xfactor lvl 3 he left his last char., Doom with 25% of life when F. Champ got R. Raccoon.(he was going to kill him but his combo fell.)  Also Hsien ko isn't a char. that can be used as an anchor, she helps with her assist, she should always be second char. with her activated unstoppable hyper. (don't remember its name) She doesn't work as anchor when they hav a very strong anchor char. against her. (Like Vergil) And if you believe that Hsien-ko is a very bad char. (which she isn't) Rocket Raccoon is way worse, he's got a lot of projectiles that aren't that great, traps that dissappear with time and very short ranged attacks, sure he's got a "teleport" but it's really the most obvious one in this game I think. (you always see it coming) If he could almost win against the best of the best in this game, Hsien-ko can too. And im also talking about UMVC3 not vanilla marvel. And you're exactly saying that in Marvel bad matchups don't exist cause it all depends on the strategy you use.

 

BTW. I NEVER said C. Viper was a bad char. she's my anchor right now, what I meant is that a match against a keep away tactic against her is really hard to fight against cuz you can't get close to them but I managed to win anyways, cuz I countered his strategy. (like you said)

 

I never wanted to talk about Brawl, but it was brought up, the thing bout MK was his Speed. He was was too fast and had no recovery from almost any attack. For me Brawl is a really fair game is you take out MK, everyone can win against anyone.

 

Now my point about this game is that bad matchups can't be countered with the same char. ur using. In this game you can't think ok he's gonna do this, so the only attack that would help me is this one against him. NO you can't think that, you have to change the char. you're using for another one. If you don't you'll find yourself with a 99-1, not 60-40 or 25-75 in a much more bad matchup. I mean a very good Sly can always use his counter ( which has no recovery)  and no one can do nothing against him except grabs ( and not everybody can do a short combo after a grab) and if he's really good, you wont be able to do a grab to him either. He can also run away from supers with his short teleport. ( which I really find to be better than dodging, since its faster and you can do it in the air.) This game will be playable in 1vs1 when you are able to beat your most horrible matchup no matter how hard it is. But otherwise in this game there are matchups that are really impossible. This game's system was at first and still is made for FFA and 2vs2, why doesn't it hav a 1vs1 option in ranked matches or in the quick matches? It wasn't ever meant for 1vs1, it might be in the future after patches and changes made.

 

I don't really wanna write anymore, I usually, actually always write one comment and leave, but it seems I accidentally clicked on something and my gmail is getting all filled with this messages, so I find myself coming back here to answer. Sorry but I never wanted to offend anyone and get people soo active, I only speaked my mind hoping someone could convince me otherwise. But then I found info that basically said that the creators of this game are in my favor since they wanted to get the game ready for the SoCal Regionals,they wanted to complete it for tournament play. So if the creators believe that, let the creators hear us out, make patches, balance the game and make it eligible for 1vs1 play. Sorry but I wont answer no moreeee.. :$

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Is 1v1 really that broken?

Jan 18, 2013
It's really hard to debate with you because you seem to completely miss the point I was trying to make.

EVERY 1v1 fighting game has bad matchups, and hell even UMVC3 does too, they're just reduced by the fact that you can use multiple characters.



I can tell you didn't play Brawl competitively, because that game was straight up broken. Even if you take out MK, Ganon still can't win against characters like Marth, Lucario, ICs, Falco, etc. Mario can't win against G&W or ICs. Ness and Lucas can't win vs Marth. Samus can't win vs D3. There are a lot more examples I can use...


Please tell me which matchups in this game are unwinnable? I can think of maybe 6-8, and I'm not even sure about those. Considering there are 400 matchups possible in 1v1 if we include dittos, that's not much. Even if we assume there's double the ones I know about, that would still be MAYBE 1 impossible matchup per character.
There are very very few impossible matchups. Most matchups in the game fall under the slight disadvantage, with 70-30s scattered here and there.


You're really going to say this game was balanced for FFA? Really? I just don't even know how to reply to that...

Might I point out that before the game came out, the exhibition matches were mostly 1v1? Might I also point out that Superbot has been trying to get PSASBR singles to EVO? On top of this, Superbot has confirmed that they are in fact working on ranked 1v1.


Sly's counter is unpunishable? Really now? Maybe you should go practice that matchup a little more... Everybody can grab it, and you can punish it with normal attacks too. The only way to make it unpunishable with attacks is to SH counter, which leaves you wide open to grabs. Also, his counter is pretty much begging to get supered.

His teleport is better than dodging? What? His teleport is good, but it is by no means better than airdodging into the ground, if only because it is actually punishable.


Also I'm not sure how you understood "We want to playtest new characters at SoCal regionals" as "We don't have a game balanced enough for 1v1".

You say you won't answer, which is a shame if it's true, but out of curiosity, who do you think are the broken characters in 1v1?

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