3. Kratos loses to no one but Raiden? Kratos is hard CP'd Isaac. He loses that MU even worse than he loses to Raiden. He beats g cole slightly and proceeds down the tier list as everyone expects. Going even with Ratchet and then proceeding on his merry way down beating virtually everyone else hard. Now why would Kratos be any higher than where we placed him? He beats g cole slightly, loses to Raiden, loses to Isaac, goes even with Ratchet so on so forth. You might argue that Kratos should be higher because of how he beats other MUs but again all the characters that Kratos wins against more or less the rest of the top tiers do as well. It isn't enough to sky rocket him above anyone else. Now is the disparity between Kratos Raiden and Cole small enough where one could hop or interchange spots? sure. But that is exactly why Ramen has them in the manner that he does. They are all in the same row because there isn't much between them.
Just to add to this... From my experience, Kratos slightly loses to E Cole as well (the only top tier my main does well against ) simply because Giga Punch prevents Kratos from mashing and forces him to play smarter. Also I feel like firebird strike is a better mobility tool than G Cole's ice jump because it is a horizontal movement instead of vertical. This can make it slightly more difficult for Kratos (or any other characters for that matter) to chase him down. Sure ice jump is annoying as f*ck, but if you see it coming and block the ice, he is free to punish. Firebird is harder to punish, especially when spaced right.
Ok ok iggy I agree with you actually in a lot if these. I shoud I probs add something saying this is barely my tier lists. I only agree with a few things on this list. I am going to consider everything iggy said along with other ex though I higky recommend hearing viz's thoughts about why peach is on top. I am sorry.
"did you ever once ask a fatp main? "As I said I asked Dillion and he said Peach should be at the top. I also asked viz (not a peach main) and Viz got all his info on this from Dillion if I remember.
[11/1/2013 3:12:21 PM] Nollid Nibur: I mean as it stands i would say she's 2nd/3rd
[11/1/2013 3:12:29 PM] iiGGYxD: above raiden?
[11/1/2013 3:12:34 PM] Nollid Nibur: but i by no means would like, make a list based on the info i have.
[11/1/2013 3:12:42 PM] iiGGYxD: well they did lol
[11/1/2013 3:12:44 PM] iiGGYxD: but n e ways
[11/1/2013 3:18:01 PM] Nollid Nibur: I mean when i made a list for viz i put
[11/1/2013 3:18:01 PM] iiGGYxD: really good but hardly anyone uses her
[11/1/2013 3:18:08 PM] iiGGYxD: him*
[11/1/2013 3:18:09 PM] Nollid Nibur: raiden
After seeing many PaRappa matches, I fail to see how PaRappa is in Borderline tier. His position should be switched with Dante. PaRappa should at least be in B Tier. Very underrated high tier in my opinion.
Yeah, that's just about the average order that we've decided as a community but after the patch, the gaps between the characters could be so much smaller that every pro's tier list looks completely different. That's what it will take to satisfy me. I want not only people complaining about how OP raiden is but other people complaining about how OP Spike or Sir dan are. Can't freakin wait.
Suggestions for tier list:
1 Sly is in the A+ Tier no doubt.
2 Spike is better than anyone in the low tier so what is he doing at the bottom?
The rest looks pretty **bleep** accurate. I think this is as close to the true tier list that we've ever been.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot see how Raiden is below Fat Princess. Anyone care to explain why? I thought the meta for the past 4 months has been that the top 3 are Kat, Raiden and Cole, with Fat Princess, Isaac, and Kratos following closely behind.
That meta was largely based off ignorance and a conception that Raiden's flip kick was the be all and end all at the time. Most of the community was struggling to deal with it and a lot of Isaac tech was simple not known or not well documented. Between then and now even though a lot of the Fat Princess information was known already more of it has come to the fore. Fat Princess at the moment only loses 1 match up straight up. The rest she wins EXCEPT for Raiden whom she apparently goes even with. There has been a lack of solid Raiden mains from the time Ragna was in his hey day and there have been maybe one or 2 since. The same with FP so any kind of MU Raiden wise has to do with interactions between the solid ones and other solid players as well as a general assessment of the tools in the MU,
Since then there has been a rise albeit slow one in the growth of not only Isaac mains but Isaac tech. So much so that as of the moment Isaac currently has 1 hard CP in Fat Princess and a slightly less hard 1 in Ratchet. Aside from that Isaac demolishes most everyone and has at least 13/14 7:3 or worse match ups in his favor spread across top tier, high tier, mid tier and low tier. There really isn't anyone much who is exempt from what Isaac can do and aside from that he has maybe a handful of other MUs that are bordering on the 7:3 point such as vs Sackboy, Raiden and Cole. One of those 7:3 MUs in his favor is vs Kratos. Kratos is also CP'd by Raiden. His general MU spread is pretty solid vs most of the cast but doesn't have the level of decimation that Isaac has.
As for Cole he is in a very vanilla stand point.There aren't any MUs he overwhelmingly does bad in but loses to everyone in top tier outside of Raiden. Lose being used very loosely because it depends on what you call a 55:45 MU which he has vs FP and Kratos. Hence you understand the arrangement of top tier.
FP with 1 solid CP but virtually winning everything else
Isaac with 1/2 hard CPs but virtually decimating top/high/mid/low tiers alike
His list of 7:3s are (Dante, Big Daddy(probably worse), Sir Daniel(probably worse), Jak, Parappa, Nariko, Kratos, Sweet Tooth, Emmett, Zeus, Toro, E Cole. Raiden. (Sackboy 65:35, Drake bordering on 65:35, Cole 6:4 might be worse)
Kratos who more or less decimates a lot of the cast to varying degrees
Cole who slightly loses to 3 people in top tier but decimates a lot of the rest of the cast, also beats Raiden
Raiden who loses to Parappa, Sackboy, Cole and goes more or less even with Fat Princess
Hopefully cleared some of this info up.
Are you saying that issac wins against E.Cole 7:3? I dunno about that. Every time I see Evil Cole against Issac, Evil Cole seems to win with grenade spam. I'm not saying he's better, I just don't think he loses that badly.
I'd say Kratos and Emmett are actually fairly even a MU.
Emmett's one of the few characters able to get Kratos away from him using his neutral square knives due to their really fast startup speed and his neutral triangle pistols always comes out even if he starts getting hit with squares which is enough to call out a turret or pod. With bouncy nades against a wall he limits Kratos upclose options able to knock him away especially during his somewhat lengthy throw animations, if Kratos tries to block or counter these it leaves him vulnerable to Emmett simply tick throwing him away for blocking or trapping him with a throw to then be knocked away by a grenade. At range he's able to duck under the bow and arrow while farming his pod for AP. If Kratos tries to counter projectiles at range Emmett can call a turret to act as canonfodder absorbing the golden orb Kratos shoots when he counters leaving him safe from harm and Kratos completely free to being supered or hit for more AP.
However one mistake can give Kratos a huge AP lead before Emmett can setup so he needs to be fairly careful. On wake up it can be difficult to get Kratos off of him without bouncing nades or the shotgun loadout.
Also I think Kratos loses pretty hard to Isaac, Normally his range is good enough to not be bothered by mines but Isaac is able to cover so much space using gunloop and buzz blade that there's not much Kratos can do about it. On large maps I've seen some Kratos running away and using the bow but Isaac can duck under it or roll and punish him with the gunloop. Upclose Isaac's throw game and general safeness with his loop and force gun can beat out a LOT of Kratos' attacks or win trades with his square chains.
Yeah RC. Ecole loses that match up still. Ecole has to put in A LOT of work for his reward, and slipping up easily allows the isaac to win the AP race. Isaac doesn't need to put in the same amount of energy required to achieve the same amount of ap but at a rapid pace. When factoring stages other than pm1 Isaac practically benefits from all of the legal stages. Even in my ehh game against bc I had to stay on a set gameplan to even match isaac's ap gain and then midgame I ventured off and the AP disparity shown as he had gained another level 2 while I was getting my first kill.(Though I did fish hard, it shows the amount of focus needed to play that mu)
He's right, I main EC. I may not be on streams all the time getting the absolute max experience, but all that EC has as an advantage are his hit and run game and his ability to destroy the mine. The same thing goes with Spike, you NEED to play smart.