Wastelander
Registered: 07/20/2008
Offline
918 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 20, 2010

 


ctfw529 wrote:

 they however, cannot make changes to the hardware like making the blu-ray player not function anymore. 


Nice try, and you were doing so well...

 

Actually, no. Think about it, kid. How do you think Sony would go about disabling blu-ray player functionality? Do you think they're going to come to your house and adjust the hardware? No, they'll release a firmware patch that will disable the drivers necessary to read blu-ray disc movies, but leave the drivers necessary to read blu-ray disc games. This is on the SOFTWARE side of things and, as you said, is within Sony's legal power.

 

So how you you feel now? Still proud you defended Sony's moral repugnance?

---------------------------------------------------------

“Please be assured that SCE is committed to continue the support for previously sold models that have the “Install Other OS” feature and that this feature will not be disabled in future firmware releases.” – Geoff Levand
Message 51 of 59 (32 Views)
I Only Post Everything
Registered: 03/04/2009
Offline
1154 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 20, 2010

artchemist wrote:

what constitutes whats core in a game console?


It's not a video game console, it's a computer. Representatives from Sony and their own website have stated this many times.


artchemist wrote:

you can keep to the BR argument the way it is if you like. its a free world. i am only saying, your comparison would do better if it came back to reality for a minute. its not just my opinion that the PlayStation does, and shall continue to play games, thats a fact. but a lot of people didnt even know what otherOS was till it was taken away.


That's not the argument I was making. I was asking exactly what is a core feature or not. Who determines exactly what a core feature is? To me, that is any feature that was/is available on the system by default. Something that was there since launch, and something that the company themselves supported and advertised. Other OS, PlayStation 3 gaming, and movies apply. It should be wrong to take any of those away, and yet we're here discussing this.

 

If they want to pull things out of newer models, that's fine. I didn't buy a slim expecting Other OS, I bought an original 60 GB for Other OS, along with PS2 backwards compatibility and SACD playback. It's when they start taking away things that I paid for that it becomes a problem. It doesn't matter if you want to argue how important the feature is, how many people use it, or whether it is relevant or not, I'm sure you can agree that taking away features after selling them to someone is an inappropriate move for any business.


artchemist wrote:

anyways, much respect to everyone keeping this civil... or as civil as this can be.. i did say from the beginning this was gonna result in nothing more then a flame war, and for the most part, it has instead been a rather interesting argument with less flaming than i had expected. imaginary kudos to all


I'm sorry if you expected everyone in support of getting Other OS back to say; "Oh yeah. You're so right. I'm just going to forget about the whole thing, thanks!" But obviously things like this don't work that way. For the most part I believe this has been pretty civil. This certainly isn't a flame war though. Both people are stating their place and opinion, and those won't be changed.

 

Also, I'm sure that you don't like the Kudos, but people give them to posts that they like. If you want then feel free to Kudos those who support you, but the system certainly isn't broken or imaginary.

________________
PlayStation 3 60 GB (upgraded with 250 GB) proudly running 3.15
Message 52 of 59 (32 Views)
MVP Support
Registered: 03/01/2008
Online
10556 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 20, 2010

while i do appreciate most of you keeping this civil, i am now regretting even getting back into an issue discussion. i used to get into them all the time, then i learned exactly what captain albator means by "gamer logic". don't let my registered date fool you, i have been on this site posting and discussing things for almost 7 years now, so i know my way around these boards. i will gracefully bow out of this discussion and let everyone continue on their own. its just that in no way, shape, or form are we going to change each others opinions on this matter or any other issue that arises, it just turns into vicious cycles with everyone twisting what they will to suit their own opinions. i'll just take artchemist's advice and from now on stay out of "issue threads" and just let this one die down until the next FW update and the issue that comes along with that and see that nothing changes just like it never does because when it comes down to it, no one here ever does anything about it anyway except contact the bbb (who does nothing) or the ftc (which if you research their website, these issues don't fall under anything they monitor or have anything to do with).

Message 53 of 59 (32 Views)
Fender Bender
Registered: 07/30/2005
Offline
2966 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 20, 2010

ctfw529 wrote:

while i do appreciate most of you keeping this civil, i am now regretting even getting back into an issue discussion. i used to get into them all the time, then i learned exactly what captain albator means by "gamer logic". don't let my registered date fool you, i have been on this site posting and discussing things for almost 7 years now, so i know my way around these boards. i will gracefully bow out of this discussion and let everyone continue on their own. its just that in no way, shape, or form are we going to change each others opinions on this matter or any other issue that arises, it just turns into vicious cycles with everyone twisting what they will to suit their own opinions. i'll just take artchemist's advice and from now on stay out of "issue threads" and just let this one die down until the next FW update and the issue that comes along with that and see that nothing changes just like it never does because when it comes down to it, no one here ever does anything about it anyway except contact the bbb (who does nothing) or the ftc (which if you research their website, these issues don't fall under anything they monitor or have anything to do with).


 

Dont feel bad, i just say the complainers should just wait and see what happenes. I been here posting the last few weeks and pointing out the same things you have and im not going to keep arguing the same points over and over with ppl that chose to not take anything you or I will say on the matter. Just like myself you have a life and we both and other like us dont need to be wasting most of our time here since it will up to what ever court that any lawsuit goes to that will deside all this.

 

I know the complainers will not like what come from this because they agreed to what sony did and can still do. If a customer dont like what is offered then they can stop supporting said product.

 

So be good and dont lose sleep over this. Believe in what you want to believe in and know that you tried your best and what ever comes up out of this we all have to deal with.

_____________________________________________________
Opinion:
Everyone has their own opinion. The people you interact with in a community come from all walks of life, many different religions and beliefs, different family income levels, different points of view on many of today's hot topics of discussion. In a nutshell, each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. Discussion about it is the best thing to do, after all that's what communities are for. If it turns into some kind of sparring match, agree to disagree and move on.
Message 54 of 59 (32 Views)
Wastelander
Registered: 10/03/2009
Offline
883 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 20, 2010

 


Dafrety wrote:

artchemist wrote:

what constitutes whats core in a game console?


It's not a video game console, it's a computer. Representatives from Sony and their own website have stated this many times.


artchemist wrote:

you can keep to the BR argument the way it is if you like. its a free world. i am only saying, your comparison would do better if it came back to reality for a minute. its not just my opinion that the PlayStation does, and shall continue to play games, thats a fact. but a lot of people didnt even know what otherOS was till it was taken away.


That's not the argument I was making. I was asking exactly what is a core feature or not. Who determines exactly what a core feature is? To me, that is any feature that was/is available on the system by default. Something that was there since launch, and something that the company themselves supported and advertised. Other OS, PlayStation 3 gaming, and movies apply. It should be wrong to take any of those away, and yet we're here discussing this.

 

If they want to pull things out of newer models, that's fine. I didn't buy a slim expecting Other OS, I bought an original 60 GB for Other OS, along with PS2 backwards compatibility and SACD playback. It's when they start taking away things that I paid for that it becomes a problem. It doesn't matter if you want to argue how important the feature is, how many people use it, or whether it is relevant or not, I'm sure you can agree that taking away features after selling them to someone is an inappropriate move for any business.


artchemist wrote:

anyways, much respect to everyone keeping this civil... or as civil as this can be.. i did say from the beginning this was gonna result in nothing more then a flame war, and for the most part, it has instead been a rather interesting argument with less flaming than i had expected. imaginary kudos to all


I'm sorry if you expected everyone in support of getting Other OS back to say; "Oh yeah. You're so right. I'm just going to forget about the whole thing, thanks!" But obviously things like this don't work that way. For the most part I believe this has been pretty civil. This certainly isn't a flame war though. Both people are stating their place and opinion, and those won't be changed.

 

Also, I'm sure that you don't like the Kudos, but people give them to posts that they like. If you want then feel free to Kudos those who support you, but the system certainly isn't broken or imaginary.


 

 

their position on whether or not its a game console or a PC has flip-floppped. but it never mattered what they want people to take their game console as. its a PlayStation, and since launch its primary focus has been the games... its a game console. they just enjoy bragging it is a PC, until they think they need to justify removing it. but, to each their own.

 

it IS a computer, no denying that. but it is a computer, with an OS (XMB, though gimpy), with the primary focus on video games. i am just saying, losing the BR games would actually result in the playstation going under, whereas the otherOS is not going to have that affect. how about a comparison on the same level of damage? i mean, if you even SAY playstation to someone, their arent gonna be thinking about a Linux operating machine, they are gonna ask you which games you like.

 

and its not that i dont like the kudos system. it just: why would i sort through and find all the points i liked, when these threads often get closed, removing the kudos. heck, just the fact it still open makes me finally believe a mod might not close this thread... but the tittle alone had me convinced they would. i truly DO applaud you for keeping decency, it not a lie. with the exception of a couple of posts in this thread, i think its great that people on both sides of the fence could come and have such a civil response. i mean, we are not eachothers enemies! why must we always talk like it, right?

 

anyway, keep the BR game example as you wish, i just think you would find it more affective if you revise it. i wish everyone the best of luck in all their ventures.

Message 55 of 59 (32 Views)
Hekseville Citizen
Registered: 04/09/2010
Offline
316 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 21, 2010

We can discuss what is or isn't a core feature till the cows come home.  Personally, I think in the early days, the PS3 was pushed as a BR player at least as much as it was as a game console.

 

But no matter what example we use the question remains:

 

If it can be disabled via software, is there any feature on the PS3 that Sony can't disable if they wish? (If we assume that the EULA cannot be challenged)

Message 56 of 59 (32 Views)
Hekseville Citizen
Registered: 11/02/2004
Offline
351 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 21, 2010

Disabling the Blu-ray drive could be done by the media companies without a firmware update:

New Blu-ray discs could even disable the Blu-ray drive entirely if they contain an AACS Host Revocation List that affects the old firmware version.

Quoted from the EFF article about 3.21:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/sony-steals-feature-from-your-playstation-3

 

Info from the manual:

 

Renewing the AACS encryption key

You may have to renew the AACS encryption key to play content such as movies on commercially available BD video software (BD-ROM). If a message indicating that the encryption key needs to be renewed is displayed, update the system software to the latest version. The encryption key will then be automatically renewed.

AACS (Advanced Access Control System) is a copyright-protection technology that is used on Blu-ray Discs. The copyrighted content is protected by setting an encryption key on both the disc and the device used to play the disc.

An AACS encryption key expires in 12 to 18 months and must be renewed. There may also be other times when the key has to be renewed.

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/video/aacs.html

 

Some more info from Wikipedia:

On April 16, 2007, the AACS consortium announced that it had expired certain encryption keys used by PC-based applications. Patches were available for WinDVD and PowerDVD which used new and uncompromised encryption keys.  The old, compromised keys can still be used to decrypt old titles, but not newer releases as they will be encrypted with these new keys. All users of the affected players (even those considered "legitimate" by the AACS LA) are forced to upgrade or replace their player software in order to view new titles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Access_Content_System#Security

 

Now this won't likely have much affect on those who keep their PS3s up to date, but it seems that people with offline PS3s or people who use Linux and thus do not want to install 3.21 will eventually lose the ability to play new Blu-ray discs. DRM at work.

 

Edit: The encryption key and Host Revocation List seem to be two separate issues. The HRL from what I'm reading may be able to disable the drive completely. As in none of your movies will work, not sure about other types of discs.

SCEA's Better Business Bureau Rating: F
G.A.P. Member
Beta Tested: Battlefield: Modern Combat, Little Big Planet, Home (Closed Beta)
Message 57 of 59 (32 Views)
0 Likes
First Son
Registered: 04/07/2009
Offline
4 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 21, 2010

As another point of view... I did NOT make the choice (refusing to accept 3.21's EULA).  But... why start challenging the EULA at all (at least at first pass?)  Yes, I believe there are some legs towards bringing a class-action suit against Sony for their actions and that the T&C/EULA may not be adequate (at least in the U.S.)

 

But an easier to claim to prove might be what I'd informall call "bait-and-switch".  Specifically, if you bought a game (e.g. God of War 3) during a pre-sale from a preferred vendor (e.g. Amazon) that promised an additional benefit to the game (e.g. an extra unlockable skin for the game), it would be VERY difficult for Sony to claim that the EULA current at time of purchase would not govern that purchase.

 

I pre-ordered GoW3 from Amazon with I believe 3.15 on my PS3.  When I received the code for teh unlockanle data, I was told that I could not access it without doing a system update and agreeing to the NEW EULA.  Thus, my pre-order advertised data to which I at the time legally had a right, but when the time came to access that data/license it required the acceptance of a diffferent EULA -- and one I refuse to subscribe to -- to get what you paid for.

 

This sort of issue is where Sony could be backed into a corner quickly.  Very few areas of commerce law allow sucha "bait and switch" (even if it had not been Sony's intention at the time the pre-order promotion was in effect and prior to 3.21 being released).

 

Essentially, anyone in a similar situation has paid for a license they cannot use.  For SCEA, ther is an argument that it not only is a case of bait-and-switch, but that it actually is fraudulent behavior.  (I can't get what I paid for until I agree to T&C's that post-date my purchase).

 

Not saying the case is airtight, but I think a class action suit (preferrably in the state of California where such suits are usually plaintiff-friendly) could make the claim that you can't force a consumer to agree to new T&C's (created subsequent to the user purchasing a license that was valid over then-governing EULA/T&C's without it being fraudulent.  I bought what I bought understanding the licence when I bought it, but cannot now nor will I likely be able to use it (as I refuse to upgrade to 3.21 and thus I have not agreed to 3.21's T&C's).  I have paid for something that I am entitled to under contemporaneous governing docs, but do not have the right to use it.  I would NOT like to be the defendant in such a case.

 

My two cents,

-George.

Message 58 of 59 (32 Views)
0 Likes
Highlighted
Fender Bender
Registered: 07/30/2005
Offline
2966 posts
 

Re: sorry people, you accepted it, now you have to make the choice...

Apr 21, 2010

Geo442 wrote:

As another point of view... I did NOT make the choice (refusing to accept 3.21's EULA).  But... why start challenging the EULA at all (at least at first pass?)  Yes, I believe there are some legs towards bringing a class-action suit against Sony for their actions and that the T&C/EULA may not be adequate (at least in the U.S.)

 

By you not wanting to update is you making a choice.

 

But an easier to claim to prove might be what I'd informall call "bait-and-switch".  Specifically, if you bought a game (e.g. God of War 3) during a pre-sale from a preferred vendor (e.g. Amazon) that promised an additional benefit to the game (e.g. an extra unlockable skin for the game), it would be VERY difficult for Sony to claim that the EULA current at time of purchase would not govern that purchase.

 

Its not bait and switch since the store you bought the game at has no control over the firmware settings of a device that is controled by another company. And since sony posted well enough in advance warnings about the ramafications of chosing not to update, it clears the store and sony from harm. Thing is if a future game comes out that requires the 3.21 and higher update and you still bought the game regardless its your fault for making the purchase, but since the game will have the update on the disk, you have the choice to install the update at that time. So again the update being on the disk eliminates the problem of the bait and switch because its still up to the customer to chose to update of not, if you refuse to update then the store and sony are in the clear.

 

I pre-ordered GoW3 from Amazon with I believe 3.15 on my PS3.  When I received the code for teh unlockanle data, I was told that I could not access it without doing a system update and agreeing to the NEW EULA.  Thus, my pre-order advertised data to which I at the time legally had a right, but when the time came to access that data/license it required the acceptance of a diffferent EULA -- and one I refuse to subscribe to -- to get what you paid for.

 

The code is extra content supplied by the psn and to access the psn you have to follow the rules set forth from the psn, If you refuse to update then that is your choice and you have to live with said choice. so by you not wanting to update means you chose not to access the psn so that is your problem.

 

This sort of issue is where Sony could be backed into a corner quickly.  Very few areas of commerce law allow sucha "bait and switch" (even if it had not been Sony's intention at the time the pre-order promotion was in effect and prior to 3.21 being released).

 

No, Sony left you with 2 choices, if you refuse to accept the choice to access the psn then that is your choice and even when sony put out the warning it cleared sony of any wrong doing since the warning and changes where posted well in advance. and its not a bait and switch because its even stated on the ps3 box that the customer will have to update the system to play future content. and that goes for downloadable content that is not vital for the game to be completed.

 

Essentially, anyone in a similar situation has paid for a license they cannot use.  For SCEA, ther is an argument that it not only is a case of bait-and-switch, but that it actually is fraudulent behavior.  (I can't get what I paid for until I agree to T&C's that post-date my purchase).

 

Ya you paid for a software license that is on the hardware, but to access the software content on a seperate service that is free means you have to accept the rules of that service to get the content, if you chose not to accept the rules and conditions of that service, then you dont get access.

 

Not saying the case is airtight, but I think a class action suit (preferrably in the state of California where such suits are usually plaintiff-friendly) could make the claim that you can't force a consumer to agree to new T&C's (created subsequent to the user purchasing a license that was valid over then-governing EULA/T&C's without it being fraudulent.  I bought what I bought understanding the licence when I bought it, but cannot now nor will I likely be able to use it (as I refuse to upgrade to 3.21 and thus I have not agreed to 3.21's T&C's).  I have paid for something that I am entitled to under contemporaneous governing docs, but do not have the right to use it.  I would NOT like to be the defendant in such a case.

 

My two cents,

-George.


If you read more closely you will find that listed in the game eula it will state that to get the downloaded extra content it will be that you will have to follow the rules of the psn and accept the terms of the psn to access the content. It means if you chose not to update it means you chose not to access the content. Even if you paid for the game, it dont mean the extra downloadable content was part of the sale of the game.

_____________________________________________________
Opinion:
Everyone has their own opinion. The people you interact with in a community come from all walks of life, many different religions and beliefs, different family income levels, different points of view on many of today's hot topics of discussion. In a nutshell, each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. Discussion about it is the best thing to do, after all that's what communities are for. If it turns into some kind of sparring match, agree to disagree and move on.
Message 59 of 59 (32 Views)