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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

bob-maul wrote:

I agree fully with Jim.

 

I do not want to be associated with any party since none of them follow closely to my ideals.

 

Republicans? They are too radical now. I love free markets and capitalism, but I also see the flaw in ending all the regulation and I also believe in some programs (albeit cut).

 

Democrats? They are even worse! They take Keynesian economics to a new extreme! The market is not the government's playground and the government should only get into the market to fix its failures (negative externalities that cause issues for people outside of a market transaction, for example). And they are now crossing into the post-modernist mindset that makes me want to punch people in the face.

 

Libertarians are...ehh. They are ruthless men and women of the market. No government assistance to anyone. You got laid off? Well, you should have looked into the position more and realized how expendable you were. You are poor with 5 children? No aid because it was your choice to have 5 children when you were so poor! Essentially, you should work hard and know the consequences for your choices. It will be all on you, for better, or for worse.

 

I would fall into the "right" in that I believe in free markets and the invisible hand whereas the left believes in a nanny state. I also believe in aid where it is due, but with restrictions in what it can be used for and for how long. 

 

In practive, I see many failures in each. Libertarians typically overlook the negative externalities that are formed by having so few regulations. Cut corners and disasters. Republicans are too skewed in conservatism and military spending does not need to be so high. And the Democrat ideals are bloating the government and sending our economy to a massive explosion with all the programs. there is a reason that social security and the like were made to be temporary programs, and there are reasons meddling in the economy too much will cause problems.


Bob a few small things.

 

1)  Republicans aren't for ending all regulation at all.  The party you are more thinking of is the Libertarians, but they don't want zero govt or regulations either.   A libertarian motto  "That government is best which governs least" accurately describes people from the conservative mindset parties.    This is a common misconception.

 

They do want to cut back on spending by cutting back on all government activities and this makes them an easy target for people to say "Republicans hate the elderly" or "republicans want the poor to starve"  or whatever the emotion invoking commentary happens to be.  

 

 

2) Democrats aren't really kensyians, they are more what are referred to as "Progressive Socialists".  Look to most European country's governments to see the form of government the Democrat party's leadership is trying to push us towards.   I personally don't agree with that direction but it is the right of Americans with that viewpoint to work towards their vision for this country.

 

3) I touched on the libertarians in my #1 there.   Again they aren't anarcists as your post implies, they just want the least amount of government possible and they don't want the federal government overstepping their constitutionally limited authority.  

 

I personally identify closest with the libertarians out of the 3 largest parties, granted they are far smaller than the dems/repubs.  Let me try and explain Libertarianism a bit.  

 

Libertarians believe in, and pursue, personal freedom while maintaining personal responsibility. 

 

Libertarians strongly oppose any government interfering in their personal, family and business decisions.  Essentially, libertarians believe all Americans should be free to live their lives and pursue their interests as they see fit as long as they do no harm to another.

 

In a nutshell, Libertarians are advocates for a smaller government, lower taxes and more freedom.

 

Libertarians are neither liberals or conservatives.  Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty.

 

For example, Libertarians advocate freedom in economic matters, so they're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and want charitable, rather than government, welfare. But Libertarians are also socially tolerant.  They don't demand laws or restrictions on other people who they may not agree because of personal actions or lifestyles.

 

Think of Libertarians as a group of people with a "live and let live" mentality and a balanced checkbook.

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Big Daddy
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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

epicbrutal wrote:

hwhunt13 wrote:

The real truth is about the closure of the national parks is that the orders came from the white house office and administration, not the GOP. Funny to say, because the democrats keep trying to play the blame the republicans game over the national park closure. It has been confirmed by twitter tweets:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/02/barry-cades-confirmed-park-service-says-obama-admin-ordered-closure-of...


I guess I know which party you're in.  I can't believe the Republicans decided to shutdown the government because they don't like Obamacare.  Democrats right now are the least of the two evils in government. 


And the Democrats are not willing to give the republicans the needed spending cuts needed, and that is why the government shutdown is underway

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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

Well, there certainly are some interesting thoughts going around this tread.

My favorite so far is this one:

 


hwhunt13 wrote:

The real truth is about the closure of the national parks is that the orders came from the white house office and administration, not the GOP. Funny to say, because the democrats keep trying to play the blame the republicans game over the national park closure. It has been confirmed by twitter tweets:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/02/barry-cades-confirmed-park-service-says-obama-admin-ordered-closure-of...


I fear that you do not understand how our governement works.

 

Here's a quick lesson:

 

The Nation Park Service is controlled by the Department of the Interior, which is part of the Executive Branch, which is ultimately controlled by the President of the United States.

 

As such, there is only one branch of the Government that has the direct authority to shut down the National Parks. No one, at least no one who has any clue about our government, is claiming that the orders came from the GOP.

 

Back to the lesson:

 

One of the jobs of the Legislative Branch is to fund the Government. If the Legislative Branch fails to do so, the Executive Branch must order the shutdown of everything deemed "non-essential". This includes the National Park Service.

 

This is the reason some people are blaming the GOP, as it is the GOP that is preventing the funding from being passed.

 

 

 

 

I, for one, feel there is more than enough blame to go around. Pointing the finger at the Democrats or the Republicans in this current debacle is to ignore the fact that our Government, as a whole, is failing the country. That being said, I do think the Republicans will ultimately take the bigger public hit for the shutdown. Politically, it was a strange fight for the GOP to pick heading into the 2014 midterm elections. They must have known that they would shoulder at least some of the blame, while the White House, moreso than the Democrats, would shoulder the rest. But when that President is serving his second term, blame and public opinion really don't realy matter all that much.

 

 

 

 

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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

PLYMCO_PILGRIM wrote:

bob-maul wrote:

I agree fully with Jim.

 

I do not want to be associated with any party since none of them follow closely to my ideals.

 

Republicans? They are too radical now. I love free markets and capitalism, but I also see the flaw in ending all the regulation and I also believe in some programs (albeit cut).

 

Democrats? They are even worse! They take Keynesian economics to a new extreme! The market is not the government's playground and the government should only get into the market to fix its failures (negative externalities that cause issues for people outside of a market transaction, for example). And they are now crossing into the post-modernist mindset that makes me want to punch people in the face.

 

Libertarians are...ehh. They are ruthless men and women of the market. No government assistance to anyone. You got laid off? Well, you should have looked into the position more and realized how expendable you were. You are poor with 5 children? No aid because it was your choice to have 5 children when you were so poor! Essentially, you should work hard and know the consequences for your choices. It will be all on you, for better, or for worse.

 

I would fall into the "right" in that I believe in free markets and the invisible hand whereas the left believes in a nanny state. I also believe in aid where it is due, but with restrictions in what it can be used for and for how long. 

 

In practive, I see many failures in each. Libertarians typically overlook the negative externalities that are formed by having so few regulations. Cut corners and disasters. Republicans are too skewed in conservatism and military spending does not need to be so high. And the Democrat ideals are bloating the government and sending our economy to a massive explosion with all the programs. there is a reason that social security and the like were made to be temporary programs, and there are reasons meddling in the economy too much will cause problems.


Bob a few small things.

 

1)  Republicans aren't for ending all regulation at all.  The party you are more thinking of is the Libertarians, but they don't want zero govt or regulations either.   A libertarian motto  "That government is best which governs least" accurately describes people from the conservative mindset parties.    This is a common misconception.

 

They do want to cut back on spending by cutting back on all government activities and this makes them an easy target for people to say "Republicans hate the elderly" or "republicans want the poor to starve"  or whatever the emotion invoking commentary happens to be.  

 

 

2) Democrats aren't really kensyians, they are more what are referred to as "Progressive Socialists".  Look to most European country's governments to see the form of government the Democrat party's leadership is trying to push us towards.   I personally don't agree with that direction but it is the right of Americans with that viewpoint to work towards their vision for this country.

 

3) I touched on the libertarians in my #1 there.   Again they aren't anarcists as your post implies, they just want the least amount of government possible and they don't want the federal government overstepping their constitutionally limited authority.  

 

I personally identify closest with the libertarians out of the 3 largest parties, granted they are far smaller than the dems/repubs.  Let me try and explain Libertarianism a bit.  

 

Libertarians believe in, and pursue, personal freedom while maintaining personal responsibility. 

 

Libertarians strongly oppose any government interfering in their personal, family and business decisions.  Essentially, libertarians believe all Americans should be free to live their lives and pursue their interests as they see fit as long as they do no harm to another.

 

In a nutshell, Libertarians are advocates for a smaller government, lower taxes and more freedom.

 

Libertarians are neither liberals or conservatives.  Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty.

 

For example, Libertarians advocate freedom in economic matters, so they're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and want charitable, rather than government, welfare. But Libertarians are also socially tolerant.  They don't demand laws or restrictions on other people who they may not agree because of personal actions or lifestyles.

 

Think of Libertarians as a group of people with a "live and let live" mentality and a balanced checkbook.


I know what you are getting at. And I agree that my critique of Republicans tend to fit the Libertarians even more. Probably my only major concern with Republicans is extremism that stems from our more polarized populace. And military spending is tad ridiculous at this point. And I agree that they are not out to kill grandma or starve the orphans. I am not a fan of the ever-growing shift in thought, though. Politics is about getting re-elected and people are polarized. It must be all right, or all left. And that goes into Congress and how it works.

 

I would say that the progressive socialism is a more extreme Keynesian idea. It is about more government control over the economy and having it guide it instead of the private industry. Health care and other key industries, for example. The nations would rather run those instead of letting the market do it. 

 

I also did not want to make it out to be that libertarians are anarchists especially sicne I agree with a lot of their values. I simply believe that their ideas are not viable for our people anymore since they have been part of a nanny state for many decades. I too agree with personal responsibiliy and economic freedom, but I also see the negative externalities. Governments are here to protect the people from what the market leaves behind (in my view, anyway). For example, the government should deal with pollution since it is a negative part of a transaction that affects more than the those involved in the deal. And I say government should defend our nation in wartimes. I also believe they should protect the market from trusts and monopolies (I also am aware that many Libertarians agree that the government should foster the market in this way).

 

Lower taxes, smaller, government, and more freedom. I definitely see the appeal and agree with a lot of it, but some of the libertarian figures do not help. While Ron Paul is very popular and has some good things to say, his idea of removing the Federal Reserve is simply terrible. And, as you said, the people are who decide the place of government in our lives. The people only like some of what you say. 

 

The people want low taxes so that they may have extra money. They want moral freedom to do as they please. They also want programs to help nanny them. For example, social security is unneeded. People could easily save the percentage out of their paycheck that goes to fund the social security balloon, but that is too much responsibility. The issue is that most people are too stupid to realize the two routes that can work. High taxes and tons of programs, or low taxes and fewer programs. Or they can take an in-between route, but that is too unstable for a populace that is self-serving. They blend what fits them now and not what fits them in the future.

 

While I completely agree with most of the Libertarian values such as personal responsibility and personal freedom, I cannot say I fit in with all of the economic ideas. I believe that welfare, unemployment, and food stamps are good as a small-time relief effort, but not to the extent of the Democratic party. And Republicans spend too much themselves on the military (and, to be fair, they can be hard-headed at times).

 

And, going by a pure market standpoint, Libertarianism totally works. The market will always recover by itself, but a little slower than if the government subsidizes it. BUT, this government intervention can cause later problems in things like debt.


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Message 24 of 43 (78 Views)
Welcoming Committee
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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

taker-77 wrote:

Well, there certainly are some interesting thoughts going around this tread.

My favorite so far is this one:

 


hwhunt13 wrote:

The real truth is about the closure of the national parks is that the orders came from the white house office and administration, not the GOP. Funny to say, because the democrats keep trying to play the blame the republicans game over the national park closure. It has been confirmed by twitter tweets:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/02/barry-cades-confirmed-park-service-says-obama-admin-ordered-closure-of...


I fear that you do not understand how our governement works.

 

Here's a quick lesson:

 

The Nation Park Service is controlled by the Department of the Interior, which is part of the Executive Branch, which is ultimately controlled by the President of the United States.

 

As such, there is only one branch of the Government that has the direct authority to shut down the National Parks. No one, at least no one who has any clue about our government, is claiming that the orders came from the GOP.

 

Back to the lesson:

 

One of the jobs of the Legislative Branch is to fund the Government. If the Legislative Branch fails to do so, the Executive Branch must order the shutdown of everything deemed "non-essential". This includes the National Park Service.

 

This is the reason some people are blaming the GOP, as it is the GOP that is preventing the funding from being passed.

 

 

 

 

I, for one, feel there is more than enough blame to go around. Pointing the finger at the Democrats or the Republicans in this current debacle is to ignore the fact that our Government, as a whole, is failing the country. That being said, I do think the Republicans will ultimately take the bigger public hit for the shutdown. Politically, it was a strange fight for the GOP to pick heading into the 2014 midterm elections. They must have known that they would shoulder at least some of the blame, while the White House, moreso than the Democrats, would shoulder the rest. But when that President is serving his second term, blame and public opinion really don't realy matter all that much.

 

 

 

 


And this is what confuses me about the Republicans currently. Do they honestly hope to convince people it was all the Democrat's fault? The Democrats have tons of leverage with the lower class since the Republicans are supposedly trying to kill all the inner city families. And the Republicans are heroes to those who do not want to pay for insurance. But the Democrats are amazing at this blame game. They pulled it off before in the last election where Obama essentially said he had to fix Bush's mess first and now needs another term. And the Republican blame game is simply not as strong. They are obviously both at fault, but who will take the most heat? I think it is clear that the Republicans will be the ones with the blame cast on their shoulders.


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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

JASONxxVOORHEES wrote:
Shouldn't we pay more attention to the "whos and whats" of our government?

Discuss...

I think the current state of America can be attributed of the fact that people didn't pay attention.  America has limitless potential but its in an unsustainable loop.  Things will get much worse before they get better.  People need to step up, take note, and demand better from their government.

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Re: ... politics

Oct 9, 2013

taker-77 wrote:

Well, there certainly are some interesting thoughts going around this tread.

My favorite so far is this one:

 


hwhunt13 wrote:

The real truth is about the closure of the national parks is that the orders came from the white house office and administration, not the GOP. Funny to say, because the democrats keep trying to play the blame the republicans game over the national park closure. It has been confirmed by twitter tweets:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/02/barry-cades-confirmed-park-service-says-obama-admin-ordered-closure-of...


I fear that you do not understand how our governement works.

 

Here's a quick lesson:

 

The Nation Park Service is controlled by the Department of the Interior, which is part of the Executive Branch, which is ultimately controlled by the President of the United States.

 

As such, there is only one branch of the Government that has the direct authority to shut down the National Parks. No one, at least no one who has any clue about our government, is claiming that the orders came from the GOP.

 

Back to the lesson:

 

One of the jobs of the Legislative Branch is to fund the Government. If the Legislative Branch fails to do so, the Executive Branch must order the shutdown of everything deemed "non-essential". This includes the National Park Service.

 

This is the reason some people are blaming the GOP, as it is the GOP that is preventing the funding from being passed.

 

 

 

 

I, for one, feel there is more than enough blame to go around. Pointing the finger at the Democrats or the Republicans in this current debacle is to ignore the fact that our Government, as a whole, is failing the country. That being said, I do think the Republicans will ultimately take the bigger public hit for the shutdown. Politically, it was a strange fight for the GOP to pick heading into the 2014 midterm elections. They must have known that they would shoulder at least some of the blame, while the White House, moreso than the Democrats, would shoulder the rest. But when that President is serving his second term, blame and public opinion really don't realy matter all that much.

 

 

 

 


Sounds to me like you are agreeing with me that obama shutdown the national parks, not the GOP. The GOP certainly did shutdown the government, not the national parks. And Harry Reid should be pointing his finger at obama for shutting down the national parks, not the republicans.

The sad part is that both sides are always claiming that they're the smarter party. And if both sides are not willing to compromise with each other, then they don't deserve to be leaders of our nation because they aren't doing the job in which they are supposed to be doing which is protecting our rights. And the democrat's thier way or the highway tactics is what got the USA into this mess in the first place.

Obama isn't doing his job either because of the compromises he refuses to agree with in favor of the republicans other than wanting to raise the debt ceiling. Obama is actually the first president in the history of our country to refuse to compromise over issues with the oppsing side unless he gets his way first.

What the democrats actually mean by a clean bill no strings attached is that they aren't wanting to make any changes to the obamacare bill. Republicans asked to delay obamacare a year, democrats said they wanted it now

The GOP has restored the military death benefits program, and the payments to government workers.

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: ... politics

Oct 10, 2013

I Agree Doc. They are all idiots.

Did people really vote for some of these clowns?

Could you imagine if any other similar business ran the way this congress does, despicable.

Everyone would have been fired a long time ago.

To top it all off they vote on there pay structure. They get the best insurance anywhere.

They have benefits and pensions no one can match. They get free airfare, hotels, meals all the perks.

They are so out of touch with normal people its unimaginable.

With 2 parties controlling things nothing seems to get done. It's all based on were right your wrong.

Are these grownups or kid's?

Republicans can't stand Obama. Democrats can't stand the House Republicans.

We now look like Global Jokers instead of Global Leaders.

I think we need multiple parties, and NO the Tea Party is not the answer.

Either that or have no parties other than the American Party.

We need more of the middle. It's the Extremist from the right and left that are destroying this country, period.

Courage is saddling up, even though your scared to death.

Atari 2600, ColecoVision, NES, Genesis, Saturn, Sega CD, PS1, PS2, PS3 (2), DS, PSP, 360, PS4, VITA
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Big Daddy
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Re: ... politics

Oct 10, 2013

bob-maul wrote:

taker-77 wrote:

Well, there certainly are some interesting thoughts going around this tread.

My favorite so far is this one:

 


hwhunt13 wrote:

The real truth is about the closure of the national parks is that the orders came from the white house office and administration, not the GOP. Funny to say, because the democrats keep trying to play the blame the republicans game over the national park closure. It has been confirmed by twitter tweets:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/02/barry-cades-confirmed-park-service-says-obama-admin-ordered-closure-of...


I fear that you do not understand how our governement works.

 

Here's a quick lesson:

 

The Nation Park Service is controlled by the Department of the Interior, which is part of the Executive Branch, which is ultimately controlled by the President of the United States.

 

As such, there is only one branch of the Government that has the direct authority to shut down the National Parks. No one, at least no one who has any clue about our government, is claiming that the orders came from the GOP.

 

Back to the lesson:

 

One of the jobs of the Legislative Branch is to fund the Government. If the Legislative Branch fails to do so, the Executive Branch must order the shutdown of everything deemed "non-essential". This includes the National Park Service.

 

This is the reason some people are blaming the GOP, as it is the GOP that is preventing the funding from being passed.

 

 

 

 

I, for one, feel there is more than enough blame to go around. Pointing the finger at the Democrats or the Republicans in this current debacle is to ignore the fact that our Government, as a whole, is failing the country. That being said, I do think the Republicans will ultimately take the bigger public hit for the shutdown. Politically, it was a strange fight for the GOP to pick heading into the 2014 midterm elections. They must have known that they would shoulder at least some of the blame, while the White House, moreso than the Democrats, would shoulder the rest. But when that President is serving his second term, blame and public opinion really don't realy matter all that much.

 

 

 

 


And this is what confuses me about the Republicans currently. Do they honestly hope to convince people it was all the Democrat's fault? The Democrats have tons of leverage with the lower class since the Republicans are supposedly trying to kill all the inner city families. And the Republicans are heroes to those who do not want to pay for insurance. But the Democrats are amazing at this blame game. They pulled it off before in the last election where Obama essentially said he had to fix Bush's mess first and now needs another term. And the Republican blame game is simply not as strong. They are obviously both at fault, but who will take the most heat? I think it is clear that the Republicans will be the ones with the blame cast on their shoulders.


The Democrats lost the house of representatives midterms 2010 after passing the obamacare bill.

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Re: ... politics

Oct 10, 2013

i dont care about any of thisSmiley Happy

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