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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

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Mar 12, 2013

TheJLC wrote:

fleinn wrote:

hwhunt13 wrote:

I will be very concerned if they start doing so on the innocent US citizens on domestic soil.


But if they were droned, clearly they must have been guilty?


Well, the current way the administration is doing it, there is no proof of guilt.

 

Also, guilt is not determined by the Executive Branch, it's determined by the Judicial Branch of government. If they start doing it on US soil, you are bypassing all the laws placed to take down such individuals and the President gains the power to execute anyone they consider an enemy combatant without any proof of guilt. The definition used today as enemy combatant could change to anything, because the Executive branch has the power.


This is the issue at hand with the program.  We, the people, do not have a clear definition of how this program is being carried out in regards to actual citizens.   

 

The way you describe it could be exactly how, at our current level of public knowledge, the program works.    I am NOT ok with this for any President or govt official, even if it was me!   

 

U.S. Citizens should be guaranteed due process. As it stands right now we don't know if this is the case with the program or not.

 

 

 

Felt like adding this.

 

Has the Patriot Act gone away yet?  No, oh just checking.     I'll keep my liberty and handle my own security, thank you.

 

 

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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

Mar 13, 2013

PLYMCO_PILGRIM wrote:

TheJLC wrote:

fleinn wrote:

But if they were droned, clearly they must have been guilty?


Well, the current way the administration is doing it, there is no proof of guilt.

 

Also, guilt is not determined by the Executive Branch, it's determined by the Judicial Branch of government. If they start doing it on US soil, you are bypassing all the laws placed to take down such individuals and the President gains the power to execute anyone they consider an enemy combatant without any proof of guilt. The definition used today as enemy combatant could change to anything, because the Executive branch has the power.


This is the issue at hand with the program.  We, the people, do not have a clear definition of how this program is being carried out in regards to actual citizens.   

 

The way you describe it could be exactly how, at our current level of public knowledge, the program works.    I am NOT ok with this for any President or govt official, even if it was me!   

 

U.S. Citizens should be guaranteed due process. As it stands right now we don't know if this is the case with the program or not.

 

 

Felt like adding this.

 

Has the Patriot Act gone away yet?  No, oh just checking.  I'll keep my liberty and handle my own security, thank you.

 


That's what I'm saying, the whole thing lacks transparency.

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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

Mar 13, 2013

ReddMannJay wrote:

The missile strike on Sept. 30, 2011, that killed al-Awlaki – a terrorist leader whose killing lawyers in the Obama administration believed to be justifiable – also killed Khan, though officials had judged he was not a significant enough threat to warrant being specifically targeted. The next month, another drone strike mistakenly killed al-Awlaki’s 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman, who had set off into the Yemeni desert in search of his father. Within just two weeks, the American government had killed three of its own citizens in Yemen. Only one had been killed on purpose.Well at least thats what they say.

A group of men who had just finished breakfast scrambled to get to their trucks. One was Anwar al-Awlaki, the firebrand preacher, born in New Mexico, Another was Samir Khan, another American citizen who had moved to Yemen from North Carolina and was the creative force behind Inspire, the militant group’s English-language Internet magazine.

Two of the Predator drones pointed lasers on the trucks to pinpoint the targets, while the larger Reapers took aim. The Reaper pilots, operating their planes from thousands of miles away, readied for the missile shots, and fired.

 

You can do more research for yourself because for some reason some people find it hard to believe that the u.s government would hurt us....WAKE UP AMERICA


**bleep** is this bs is being spoken of on PS Forums, all that right wing bs i dont want to read when i come in here **bleep** idiots... i trust the Gov but so much but to be in here trying to make Republicans out of Ppl must be **bleep** crazy gtfoh with that **bleep**RedNeckJay! to for me to figure who redmannhay really is.

 

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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

Mar 13, 2013

TheJLC wrote:

fleinn wrote:
So are you accusing the current [insert affiliation] administration of killing innocent people? This is a serious allegation to make without proof in a time of global never-ending war. (Rabblerabble).

And you certainly undermine the US authority domestically as well as abroad by suggesting they are not just and righteous (on principle). This is at best subversive, and aligns you with the terrorists (who wish to eradicate all our values and institutions).

Also, be careful, or your misguided sense of justice could very well be causing harm to service personnel currently engaged in delicate and surgical marine-strikes in various war..ish.. theaters around the globe.

Really, what's next? Claiming that everyone has the right to a fair trial? Or that no one should be robbed of property or life by executive affidavit, because law and justice is important?

Haw, hawrrr, hawwr!!

Not sure if serious or sarcasm... nonetheless, I will respond as if serious!

 

Nobody is claiming that these people are innocent. Only that the situation lacks transparency as the President can list anyone as an enemy combatant and all the proof will remain a secret under CIA guidelines. That's why it's not only republicans but also democrats wanting to see more transparency in who gets killed by these drone strikes. It's not about party affiliation, it's about each branch knowing their place in government.

 

In the US justice system, we don't sent the police to execute people we suspect of being criminals. We arrest them and take them to court on charges and evidence. If the President is able to pick an choose who gets droned within the US, he/she bypasses all checks and balances.

 

We have a capable Police and court system within the US, so yes, everyone gets a day in court. Otherwise, there is no justice and the institutions should be eradicated, under your principle. Outside of the US, the laws are different and US authority may be sometimes limited to drones.


@TheJLC Yo he is dead serious and the OP is really trying to convert ppl from one thing to another and this has ABSOLUTLEY NO PLACE ON PLAYSTATION FORUMS!

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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

Mar 13, 2013

Lol.  RedNeckJay is just some Fox News watching/right wing/tea bagger's alternate account on here.  He's just trying to stir things up here lol.

 

It's weird how there's so many of them here on a Japanese made console forum.  I'd expect this on an Xbox forum for some reason lol.

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Re: U.S claims ability to kill U.S citizens

Mar 13, 2013

polo155 wrote:
@TheJLC Yo he is dead serious and the OP is really trying to convert ppl from one thing to another and this has ABSOLUTLEY NO PLACE ON PLAYSTATION FORUMS!

 

I guess I'm a little bit serious. But I don't think people targeted for assassination must be guilty because they were targeted for assassination, no. ...People could read "The Process" by Kafka. Or "The Trial" I guess it must be called in english, if they want a good/classic poetic explanation of why this sort of justice doesn't work. It's a short book.. even Bush could read it in a week.

 

Anyway. See, when this assassination/predator argument was fresh.. Back in the long-long ago, when Clinton was President, and we actually had someone to talk to in your foreign ministeries who weren't at absolutely and completely insane. Back then, the arguments for secret assassination programs were explained in the way I sketched out. WIth no irony whatsoever.

 

People said: well, with that justification you're using right now, by definition this means you could also claim the right to assassinate US citizens. Making these assassination programs not imply either declarations of war or international intervention - putting them out of the scope of control for either international bodies or the US Congress. You're arguing, successfully with this setup, that when launching missiles into Pakistan and Afghanistan, that the president personally can approve programs to secretly kill anyone, anywhere on the planet. Etc., etc.

 

And people in the administration said: "Well, we're not insane, so we're obviously not going to exploit this program to shoot Republicans or anything like that, haha". Seriously, that was the argument then as well. Some of us laid the argument out, pointed out that if that is the justification - then the President has the authority to wage personal war on Utah if he wants to. And no one can stop him.

 

And that's what is actually been justified as operative law at the moment. From an intellectual kind of bull**** perspective, it's interesting to watch it happening, of course, because these people in these administrations are so obvious about it.

 

While as the OP points out, you don't need to be very circumspect or complicated to instinctively recoil at the idea of giving someone the authority to start wars and murder people without any fear of reprisal from any sort of civic institution. Law, congress, international law, UN, diplomatic channels - none of it is to be involved at any point. And it's designed purposely that way by the ministeries in order to "allow" the President of the US the "ability" to conduct these operations with as much ease as possible.

 

The operative process of this comes from the administrations being able to treat "interpretations" by low-level functionaries such as John Yoo, as operative law. Happens fairly frequently now - "is this possible to do legally". Is a command rather than a serious legal question.

 

So when you actually do have police-departments now using the same rhetoric, and having the same legal frameworks as a baseline. And actually using drones, from the same companies who produce the predator drones, for surveillance. And where police-departments become armed with assault-rifles, instead of batons -- you know, there's something going on here that would probably deserve at least half a thought.

 

But that's not up to me. And in any case - why not put up some thoughts here? It's as good as any other place where people from different countries meet. Also is utterly non-committing and unserious, like foreign relations should be, right. Smiley Tongue Oh, and buy a droney t-shirt. Smiley Very Happy 

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