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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 8, 2009

Ok, I think 15:00 hours passed. I'm waiting to be blown away, unless you're suffering from a hangover.

 

Ahh, young adults these days...

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 9, 2009

xC2x wrote:

JGod666 wrote:

Well, Rap falls under the "music" category because of it's use of beats and computerized music. For this reason, do you also consider trance to not be music? If you're talking out of the music theory and not with what you actually think, then that's pretty ridiculous. I always thought of the Music theory as nothing but a THEORY (ridiculous right?). If not, then you should consider the fact that some rappers don't use beats to support their rhymes (The Roots being an example). 

 

BTW: This is me - http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/profile?user.id=1624224

man, ur profile is epic!! Buot yea- not sure why ur responding to me. I'm not in good shape for this dicussion,

 

like, i'm going to go off to bed right now. When i get sober in about 10 hours i'm going to comment back on this and make an epic response. But yea - i read ur entire post and I don't undesrtand it. So just be ready at like - 1500 tomorrow. You'll be annihalated, young child. Just wait and see. 

 

ACtualy, I don't even know why I go to tehse boards? There are only like 3 people i've ever met on here that are cool. every1 else is just ridiculously mad or into different tastes all the time. 


Well, you should understand why most people quote rap as "talentless"; it's based on the fact that most rap music has only two honest facets: poetry (or lyrical/vocal parts) and its beat. Very rarely are either of these two parts seriously complex or impressive.

Take this for example. It pretty much takes a few minutes of work, if that, to develop a rap beat. Now - just cut up some lyrics (easy, just write poetry) and loop that beat. Man, seems like a completely difficult process. Everybody always wonders why rappers seem to have countless albums thrown left and right in their discography? Hm, it's either that they're musical geniuses or that **bleep** is just so cliche and simple that any schmucky with any sort of beat/loop producing software knowledge can capitalize on such an easy form of music writing.

 

As for "free-styling", that's completely irrelevant to the topic. Most rappers would have their lyrics memorized - now wouldn't they? And yet you "fanatics" quote Talib Kweli as such a hero amongst your list of artists. Well, his sound is no different than any other rap I hear. There are multiple "loops", reciting "lyrics", and just as simple melodic/harmonic loops synced with the two as well. The same simple production I aforementioned. I can understand that a minimalist approach works in the favor of many genres - but rap is based completely on minimalism; demonstrating very little variation in and throughout the entirety of the song.

ON top of all that, if you can summarize how rappers have more talent than even these simpler displays of so-called "music theory", than you may as well have the genius to cure cancer - since there is otherwise no way you can explain the efficacy of your less COMPLEX music outside of the fact that you love that sound. I'm not arguing that you like the sound, just as I love the sound of death metal - but the end result I'm trying to explain is that one takes serious talent to perform and compose, and the other does not. That has been the basic criticism of the genre since its beginning.

.:. .:.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 9, 2009
Listen to an actually talented rapper. Really. I still am not a big fan of rap but there's far more to it than you'll ever admit. Sure the drum beats and crap are simple but there's very little else simple about a truly masterful piece of hip-hop...
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I Only Post Everything
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 10, 2009
I literally hate rap.....but their is only one song i like, "Where'd you go" by fort minor.
"Men are not prisoner's of fate, but only prisoner's of their own mind's." --Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 10, 2009

Stempowski wrote:
I literally hate rap.....but their is only one song i like, "Where'd you go" by fort minor.
Then why would you even consider coming to a place called Music General?



Let alone post something like this that's so ignorant and closed-minded that.... aw, **bleep** I'm not even gonna waste more of my time.
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 10, 2009

xC2x wrote:

Well, you should understand why most people quote rap as "talentless"; it's based on the fact that most rap music has only two honest facets: poetry (or lyrical/vocal parts) and its beat. Very rarely are either of these two parts seriously complex or impressive.

Take this for example. It pretty much takes a few minutes of work, if that, to develop a rap beat. Now - just cut up some lyrics (easy, just write poetry) and loop that beat. Man, seems like a completely difficult process. Everybody always wonders why rappers seem to have countless albums thrown left and right in their discography? Hm, it's either that they're musical geniuses or that **bleep** is just so cliche and simple that any schmucky with any sort of beat/loop producing software knowledge can capitalize on such an easy form of music writing.

 

As for "free-styling", that's completely irrelevant to the topic. Most rappers would have their lyrics memorized - now wouldn't they? And yet you "fanatics" quote Talib Kweli as such a hero amongst your list of artists. Well, his sound is no different than any other rap I hear. There are multiple "loops", reciting "lyrics", and just as simple melodic/harmonic loops synced with the two as well. The same simple production I aforementioned. I can understand that a minimalist approach works in the favor of many genres - but rap is based completely on minimalism; demonstrating very little variation in and throughout the entirety of the song.

ON top of all that, if you can summarize how rappers have more talent than even these simpler displays of so-called "music theory", than you may as well have the genius to cure cancer - since there is otherwise no way you can explain the efficacy of your less COMPLEX music outside of the fact that you love that sound. I'm not arguing that you like the sound, just as I love the sound of death metal - but the end result I'm trying to explain is that one takes serious talent to perform and compose, and the other does not. That has been the basic criticism of the genre since its beginning.


XC2x, are you approaching it from the standpoint of "It's not about artistic expression and creating art, it's about how difficult the music is to make?" Tough measure don't you think? Especially if you are going by genres in blanket terms? For arguments sake let's take it on a smaller level, can anybody even make an evenhanded talent based comparison between, say, Liquid Swords against Necroticism - Descanting the Insalubrious?
To me, a talent comparison between those two albums would be difficult. It is not even about being fair, IMO you can't ascertain something as nebulous as talent level on both albums, much less whole genres, because of the different skills involved in making these distinctive types of music. Also in terms of these different skills you gotta recognize that you are distilling hip-hop's compositional process into "two honest facets" without understanding that those "two honest facets" are themselves multifaceted. A beat has intricate patterns blended & interlaced into the rhythm. The patterns are playing simultaneously (one of them is the flow and tone of the M.C.'s voice & how it resonates in your person) and those layered patterns are all contributing to create a textured arrangement. I disagree that rap is based on minimalism, it is based on evoking mood and reaction (aka "vibe" ) just as much as any other genre of music.
I understand that you like dynamic music, and I do too. In my mind a great rapper's delivery can be as dynamic as any high velocity riff or crescendo. I am amazed when an M.C./storyteller/poet can inhabit that fertile space in a track and make it a podium to address issues of the day. I definitely think it takes a special talent to be able to compose and deliver raps that energize and move an audience, it is something that can't be oversimplified into "just write poetry." It's much more than poetry, there is wit and vivid imagery, the best do it with a lyrical flow balanced with insightful perspective. Perspective is very important because there is no other type of music that is as self-referential, hip-hop requires the listener to not only have a grasp of contemporary cultural references but to recollect on verses, trends, aspects from hip-hop history.
I believe that in good rap music (which there really is plenty of) the M.C. showcases the beat as much as the beat provides for the rapping. And when that happens, the mix of intricate patterns (polyrhythmatic beat, flow & tone, sampled sounds, clever wordplay) create dynamic sound interactions that are acknowledgeable works of talent and crafts of art. That is why, in my opinion, rap music is one of the most complex styles of music.
Something I find troubling about your conception of simple-vs-talented is the use of discography. Much too spurious. Edge of Sanity put out 7 studio albums between '91 to '97, during that approximate time (actually 1990 to 98, please note that's two years added) a hip-hop group with a similar lifespan: A Tribe Called Quest, puts out just 5 studio albums. Does that mean that Edge of Sanity had easier time putting together those 7 albums in 6 years as opposed to Tribe's 5 albums in 9 years? I guess by your logic: yes. I can guess your reply: Edge of Sanity are musical geniuses, and Tribe was just so swamped with cliché verses and simple production they couldn't even find the mixing board and DAT machine. Whatever. The discography point is moot. Recording artists' studio work ethic and production schedule is different for every artist.
However, you are totally on point in your last paragraph about me loving the sound, regardless of what I write to logically defend hip-hop, and try to reason with its critics, there is nothing more honest and true "fact" than me loving the music. The rest is opinion. Heck, if it doesn't move you, it doesn't move you. Simple as that, no one type of music is more relevant than another, it all depends on the person.

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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 10, 2009

king-slender00 wrote:

xC2x wrote:

Well, you should understand why most people quote rap as "talentless"; it's based on the fact that most rap music has only two honest facets: poetry (or lyrical/vocal parts) and its beat. Very rarely are either of these two parts seriously complex or impressive.

Take this for example. It pretty much takes a few minutes of work, if that, to develop a rap beat. Now - just cut up some lyrics (easy, just write poetry) and loop that beat. Man, seems like a completely difficult process. Everybody always wonders why rappers seem to have countless albums thrown left and right in their discography? Hm, it's either that they're musical geniuses or that **bleep** is just so cliche and simple that any schmucky with any sort of beat/loop producing software knowledge can capitalize on such an easy form of music writing.

 

As for "free-styling", that's completely irrelevant to the topic. Most rappers would have their lyrics memorized - now wouldn't they? And yet you "fanatics" quote Talib Kweli as such a hero amongst your list of artists. Well, his sound is no different than any other rap I hear. There are multiple "loops", reciting "lyrics", and just as simple melodic/harmonic loops synced with the two as well. The same simple production I aforementioned. I can understand that a minimalist approach works in the favor of many genres - but rap is based completely on minimalism; demonstrating very little variation in and throughout the entirety of the song.

ON top of all that, if you can summarize how rappers have more talent than even these simpler displays of so-called "music theory", than you may as well have the genius to cure cancer - since there is otherwise no way you can explain the efficacy of your less COMPLEX music outside of the fact that you love that sound. I'm not arguing that you like the sound, just as I love the sound of death metal - but the end result I'm trying to explain is that one takes serious talent to perform and compose, and the other does not. That has been the basic criticism of the genre since its beginning.


XC2x, are you approaching it from the standpoint of "It's not about artistic expression and creating art, it's about how difficult the music is to make?" Tough measure don't you think? Especially if you are going by genres in blanket terms? For arguments sake let's take it on a smaller level, can anybody even make an evenhanded talent based comparison between, say, Liquid Swords against Necroticism - Descanting the Insalubrious?

To me, a talent comparison between those two albums would be difficult. It is not even about being fair, IMO you can't ascertain something as nebulous as talent level on both albums, much less whole genres, because of the different skills involved in making these distinctive types of music.

 

Also in terms of these different skills you gotta recognize that you are distilling hip-hop's compositional process into "two honest facets" without understanding that those "two honest facets" are themselves multifaceted. A beat has intricate patterns blended & interlaced into the rhythm. The patterns are playing simultaneously (one of them is the flow and tone of the M.C.'s voice & how it resonates in your person) and those layered patterns are all contributing to create a textured arrangement.

 

I disagree that rap is based on minimalism, it is based on evoking mood and reaction (aka "vibe" ) just as much as any other genre of music.
I understand that you like dynamic music, and I do too. In my mind a great rapper's delivery can be as dynamic as any high velocity riff or crescendo. I am amazed when an M.C./storyteller/poet can inhabit that fertile space in a track and make it a podium to address issues of the day. I definitely think it takes a special talent to be able to compose and deliver raps that energize and move an audience, it is something that can't be oversimplified into "just write poetry." It's much more than poetry, there is wit and vivid imagery, the best do it with a lyrical flow balanced with insightful perspective.

 

Perspective is very important because there is no other type of music that is as self-referential, hip-hop requires the listener to not only have a grasp of contemporary cultural references but to recollect on verses, trends, aspects from hip-hop history.

 

I believe that in good rap music (which there really is plenty of) the M.C. showcases the beat as much as the beat provides for the rapping. And when that happens, the mix of intricate patterns (polyrhythmatic beat, flow & tone, sampled sounds, clever wordplay) create dynamic sound interactions that are acknowledgeable works of talent and crafts of art. That is why, in my opinion, rap music is one of the most complex styles of music.

Something I find troubling about your conception of simple-vs-talented is the use of discography. Much too spurious. Edge of Sanity put out 7 studio albums between '91 to '97, during that approximate time (actually 1990 to 98, please note that's two years added) a hip-hop group with a similar lifespan: A Tribe Called Quest, puts out just 5 studio albums. Does that mean that Edge of Sanity had easier time putting together those 7 albums in 6 years as opposed to Tribe's 5 albums in 9 years? I guess by your logic: yes.

 

 I can guess your reply: Edge of Sanity are musical geniuses, and Tribe was just so swamped with cliché verses and simple production they couldn't even find the mixing board and DAT machine. Whatever. The discography point is moot. Recording artists' studio work ethic and production schedule is different for every artist.

 

However, you are totally on point in your last paragraph about me loving the sound, regardless of what I write to logically defend hip-hop, and try to reason with its critics, there is nothing more honest and true "fact" than me loving the music. The rest is opinion. Heck, if it doesn't move you, it doesn't move you. Simple as that, no one type of music is more relevant than another, it all depends on the person.


Kudos to you man, just spaced it out so its easier to read.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 11, 2009

BrenJ99 wrote:

thats you opinion not everyone elses so if you are going to bash it dont talk about it


and you resurrected this dead ass thread why?

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 11, 2009
Because they're noobs.
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Re: Reasons why rap sucks ( except Public Enemy )

Aug 12, 2009

xC2x wrote:
y'knokw what mr. 19 posts

LOL, bumping this thread was worth it just because of this.:smileyvery-happy:

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