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Fender Bender
Registered: 05/15/2009
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

PlasticPulse wrote:

One of the big complaints people had about KZ2 was that you could unlock everything too quickly, so they didn't feel much incentive to keep playing after a few weeks. I recall seeing that complaint many times in the forums.

Mm. The complaint was that /the unlocks on their own/ were "done" too quickly.

Does that say something about the game? Or does it say something about the people who complain?

I mean - how many casual gamers would pick up a game and say: "ooh! Now I'm going to grind until I unlock all the perks!"? Does that count more than, say, options for playing with friends, stable online, co-op, user-interface, etc..?

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

PlasticPulse wrote:

As for spawn-rape, that was a way bigger problem in KZ2, by far. I haven't seen any spawnrape occur in KZ3 yet. The spawns in KZ3 actually flip around. In Bloodgracht, I'll start off spawning in the Helghast side, and halfway through the game, I'm spawning from the ISA side of the map. And taking away spawning on squad leader actually helps prevent spawnrape as well, since you still have to run from your spawn location to get to the action (the only good result of removing spawning on squad leader). Spawnrape was actually one of the things I absolutely hated about KZ2. I went back and played it a few days ago, and there I was in Radec, with my team completely spawnraping the other team. It was boring, and must have been frustrating for the other team.

Evidently you haven't played much Killzone 3, or at least not much Warzone. And you certainly haven't spent much time in Turbine Concourse. By switching from spawn grenades to TSAs teams have virtually no chance to break out of base camping, and since the TSAs' locations are always known it is also easier to spawn camp them. At least in Killzone 2 a Tactician (especially one with boost) can bootstrap his team out of base camping in most cases -- he sprints for a location slightly outside of his base, deploys a spawn grenade, and probably dies soon after...then other players start spawning from that spawn grenade, the Tactician spawns from there and sprints farther away from his base and deploys another spawn grenade, etc. With TSAs the Tactician is forced to run halfway across the map or more just to reach a TSA -- it is nearly impossible to stay alive long enough to reach the nearest TSA, much less survive long enough against the enemy players spawning there to capture or even neutralize the TSA.

So once base camping begins in Killzone 3 it's almost impossible to break out of it. Turbine Concourse is the worst. If the enemy team has all three TSAs then a tactician has to either (a) pick up a jetpack and somehow survive flying up to one of the upper TSA or (b) sprint for the lower TSA on the other side of the map and somehow escape all the enemies who can shoot at him while he's running that whole distance.

Killzone 3 spawn and base camping is much worse than Killzone 2 spawn and base camping.






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Gaming Beast
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

fleinn wrote:

PlasticPulse wrote:

One of the big complaints people had about KZ2 was that you could unlock everything too quickly, so they didn't feel much incentive to keep playing after a few weeks. I recall seeing that complaint many times in the forums.

Mm. The complaint was that /the unlocks on their own/ were "done" too quickly.

Does that say something about the game? Or does it say something about the people who complain?

I mean - how many casual gamers would pick up a game and say: "ooh! Now I'm going to grind until I unlock all the perks!"? Does that count more than, say, options for playing with friends, stable online, co-op, user-interface, etc..?

Well, just look at the hugely successful #1 top fps franchise (COD), and notice that tons of people keep prestiging. Or look at other huge games like World of Warcraft, where grinding is almost 100% of the experience. So yes, unlocking the same stuff over and over is definitely grinding, but people like to grind, sadly. I can't count how many times I've seen a person say "I would have gotten bored with COD if they didn't have the presige system". It's not something I understand, because I like to spend time using stuff I earned, and not just re-earning over and over. I wouldn't call it grinding in KZ3, because you unlock it once then you're done. If you mainly play warzone, the ranking up process isn't terrible. I can increase a rank per day with about an hour of gameplay, if I stick to warzone and really focus on objectives. If you just casually play Guerilla Warfare every day, even for an hour, you will never rank up at all.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

Dark_Lord_Null wrote:

Evidently you haven't played much Killzone 3, or at least not much Warzone. And you certainly haven't spent much time in Turbine Concourse. By switching from spawn grenades to TSAs teams have virtually no chance to break out of base camping, and since the TSAs' locations are always known it is also easier to spawn camp them. At least in Killzone 2 a Tactician (especially one with boost) can bootstrap his team out of base camping in most cases -- he sprints for a location slightly outside of his base, deploys a spawn grenade, and probably dies soon after...then other players start spawning from that spawn grenade, the Tactician spawns from there and sprints farther away from his base and deploys another spawn grenade, etc. With TSAs the Tactician is forced to run halfway across the map or more just to reach a TSA -- it is nearly impossible to stay alive long enough to reach the nearest TSA, much less survive long enough against the enemy players spawning there to capture or even neutralize the TSA.

So once base camping begins in Killzone 3 it's almost impossible to break out of it. Turbine Concourse is the worst. If the enemy team has all three TSAs then a tactician has to either (a) pick up a jetpack and somehow survive flying up to one of the upper TSA or (b) sprint for the lower TSA on the other side of the map and somehow escape all the enemies who can shoot at him while he's running that whole distance.

Killzone 3 spawn and base camping is much worse than Killzone 2 spawn and base camping.






I'll agree that on certain maps, if all TSP's are captured by the enemy, the game is pretty much over and you don't have a chance, but there's no way in hell that spawnraping in KZ3 is as bad as, or worse than in was in KZ2. KZ2 had fixed base spawn locations, and spawning on squad leader, along with spawn grenades that could be dropped right outside your base. Once the other team got their squads to your base, with spawn grenades as well, you literally were trapped in the base and couldn't get out. I saw this many MANY times in Killzone 2. It happened a lot. I just haven't seen this in KZ3. Even if the other team has all the TSP's, they still have to run to get your base, it's not like they die/respawn right outside your base. Spawn-trapping was a huge problem in Killzone 2. If you don't believe me, go play a few bodycount matches in Radec or Tharsis (which is most of what you'll see in the server list anyway), and tell me spawn-trapping isn't a problem. I got spwan-trapped like nobody's business in that game, it was ridiculous.

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Fender Bender
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

PlasticPulse wrote:

fleinn wrote:

PlasticPulse wrote:

One of the big complaints people had about KZ2 was that you could unlock everything too quickly, so they didn't feel much incentive to keep playing after a few weeks. I recall seeing that complaint many times in the forums.

Mm. The complaint was that /the unlocks on their own/ were "done" too quickly.

Does that say something about the game? Or does it say something about the people who complain?

I mean - how many casual gamers would pick up a game and say: "ooh! Now I'm going to grind until I unlock all the perks!"? Does that count more than, say, options for playing with friends, stable online, co-op, user-interface, etc..?

Well, just look at the hugely successful #1 top fps franchise (COD), and notice that tons of people keep prestiging. Or look at other huge games like World of Warcraft, where grinding is almost 100% of the experience. So yes, unlocking the same stuff over and over is definitely grinding, but people like to grind, sadly. I can't count how many times I've seen a person say "I would have gotten bored with COD if they didn't have the presige system". It's not something I understand, because I like to spend time using stuff I earned, and not just re-earning over and over. I wouldn't call it grinding in KZ3, because you unlock it once then you're done. If you mainly play warzone, the ranking up process isn't terrible. I can increase a rank per day with about an hour of gameplay, if I stick to warzone and really focus on objectives. If you just casually play Guerilla Warfare every day, even for an hour, you will never rank up at all.

I agree that neither warzone or GW makes any sense for anything else but grinding.

..but.. multiple prestige will nab the casuals? How does that make sense?

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

fleinn wrote:

soundandvision77 wrote:

I've been having a blast with the multiplayer too.  Maybe they've geared the game towards more "casual" players, but if that means players who don't have time to spend hundreds of hours online on the same game, then yes it's more casual-friendly.

..kz2 had a much quicker unlock path, though. Unlocking the classes was basically a learning curve, introduction to the abilities. Then as you played the classes, you could combine them.

The ones who didn't like that weren't casual players - the main "complaint" on the forums was that there wasn't enough ranks and unlocks to "motivate you to play the game more". In truth - it was casual, but with depth. Where the interesting part of the game was the actual gameplay, rather than the unlocks and perks. You didn't get an advantage by ranking up, so everyone had a level playing field once they learned the rules, simple as that. I thought that meant it was a good game. Others, very loud others, disagree.

What we have now, in Killzone 3 (and KZ2 post patch) is something that adds more ranks, more point-grinding, and a longer linear upgrade path. So you end up with more powerful weapons if you play all day. For people who only play the game once in a while, it's going to take them a week or two to actually get the last turrets, or the weapons you want. Along with the severely overpowered abilities (such as cloak or disguise that doesn't break).

So if you just starting out, you're going to have a hard time keeping up -  even if you're a decent player. ..just like in COD.

I mean, I'm just asking - is that really more casual-friendly? ....To spawn-rape *****.. until they grind enough experience to spawn-rape other ***** back..? Like has been said before - the problem with Killzone 2 was the presentation, not the actual game. Unlike with COD - where the presentation is great, and the actual game is atrocious.. KZ3 seems to take a serious stab at combining the two for some reason..

Fair enough - I'm not able to compare KZ2 with KZ3 since I didn't play KZ2.  I don't doubt that the multiplayer was great for that. I'm more thinking of something like Call of Duty, where it seemed like you would need to spend too much time to upgrade just to get competitive in a rather-annoying game environment.  In KZ3, I actually found that it didn't take too long to upgrade a couple weapons and abilities to the point where I felt like I was competitive in the game.  Maybe that's because I mostly play Warzone, which quickly rewards you for performing the tasks that each class was designed for.  I guess that's why I find it more casual-friendly than something like CoD, where it takes forever just to unlock the next scope for your gun.  I don't find that very exciting.  In KZ3 it doesn't take very long to unlock something like a bot that can really help you in the game.

Not sure about the spawn-raping - sure it happens, but you can always try to get your teammates to go around another way until you can capture their spawn point instead.  I'm guessing this is more prevalent in Guerrilla Warfare than in Warzone?

Anyway, I'm basically just trying to say that I usually don't bother with online multiplayer for very long because I don't want to spend a lot of time unlocking things and getting killed way too easily for hours on end.  For some reason, I don't have the same problem in Killzone 3, and I actually look forward to unlocking stuff and it seems to be easier to do it.  The matches are also usually tightly fought and exciting.  If you try to accomplish the goals and use your classes' abilities to help your team win a match, it's a lot of fun.  That's why I think this is a great game!

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Fender Bender
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

soundandvision77 wrote:

That's why I think this is a great game!

- - - - - - - - -
You can never have enough Fulton balloons.

At least it's better than COD.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

fleinn wrote:

I agree that neither warzone or GW makes any sense for anything else but grinding.

..but.. multiple prestige will nab the casuals? How does that make sense?

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "casuals". Do you mean people don't spend much time playing video games in general? Those might not be the target GG would want anyway. COD seems to appeal to both casual gamers and 24/7 no-lifers, so they strike a good balance between instant gratification and reward for long-term play. The prestige system keeps lots of people glued to the game for months, who might otherwise get bored and leave (though I've never prestiged, and never will). I don't think a prestige system will mean much to a person who only plays every once in a while, but I do think that unlockables make sense as a reward for those who are willing to devote more time to the game.

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Fender Bender
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

Absolutely. So to suggest we need more ranks and unlocks to lure in the "casuals" is very obviously false. Congratulations, you have now earned the scorn of the entirety of the Killzone community.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Killzone 3 already sucks?

Mar 9, 2011

fleinn wrote:

Absolutely. So to suggest we need more ranks and unlocks to lure in the "casuals" is very obviously false. Congratulations, you have now earned the scorn of the entirety of the Killzone community.

I'm not sure I've heard anyone say that KZ needs to appeal more to casual gamers, though maybe I'm missing something. I'm not aware of any fps that is 100% casual other than maybe Crysis, where all the weapons are pick-up and there are no ranks or unlocks. There's also a COD clone on the PSN which has no ranks, and all unlocks are reset every time you die (or something like that). Ranks and unlockables just appeal to regular and hardcore gamers, which is a pretty big segment of the gaming community. They have become a standard in any fps. I don't even think casual gamers would even play a multiplayer fps. All the casual gamers I know don't even touch the online portion of their games. They just play the campaign and then return it to GameFly.

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