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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 2, 2013

Notice the earlier post refering to the 300C and the M5..? Sure, make real life comparisons all you like, but how about some comparisong to game life? I mean, if not about the game, isn't what you posted something for the General Racing forum?

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thatRe: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 3, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

Notice the earlier post refering to the 300C and the M5..? Sure, make real life comparisons all you like, but how about some comparisong to game life? I mean, if not about the game, isn't what you posted something for the General Racing forum?


that was that post....I made a post of my own with a question of my own....answer it or move on.....dont change my question...it just confuses things.

 

  The way i see it .....PP is the same as putting weights on a fast guy so a fat guy can keep up with him..... when they shouldnt be on the field together.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 3, 2013

Lordmarshal wrote:

Lordmarshal wrote:

I have a question ,  its real life.... You have a chrysler 300c.. I have have a 911 Porsche .   We both get stage 3 engine , racing pipe and suspension kit...... Which car is faster?


Depends on many other variables like: are we running the same weight / power, is it a drag race or a track race, what base model 300C and 911 are we using with those upgrades, are you looking for an advantage by racing a sports car against a luxury sedan, what downforce are we running, then there's the driving aids, there's also weather / temperature.  Too many real life variables Smiley Happy.


Lol ... Semantics 


 

Semantics?  Nah, more like avoiding a leading but vague question.  Generally speaking of course you'd expect the Porsche to be the faster of the two, if we were to get semantic about it it might go something like this:

 

I'd say "Oh of course my Chrysler would win.  I'm using the top of the line SRT tuned 300 with the biggest engine, best brakes and other fancy doodads compared to your rusty, old, basic 911 from the 60s that's got more miles on it than the Voyager probe".

 

To which you might reply "Oh no, I meant you were using the most basic 300 available with the tiniest engine and the soft / fluffy comfortable suspension where as I'm using a top of the line AWD Porsche with the best of everything.".

 

At any rate, what does trying to compare two completely different cars in the real world have to do with the PP system?  As I said before I was just trying to point out that in races involving multiple similar marques (not a fat / slow family car vs. a light / fast supercars) simply using weight / power doesn't always work because cars can still be uneven and that's where something the PP system was supposed to pick up the slack.

 

Even with the PP system (broken or not) I wouldn't expect two vastly different cars like the Chrysler 300C and the Ruf RGT to be competitive at the same PP (or even at the same power / weight for that matter) because they're completely different cars.  However I would expect the 300C and say a BMW M5 or Lexus IS F to be more evenly match because they are much more similar cars.

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Re: thatRe: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

[ Edited ]
Feb 3, 2013

Lordmarshal wrote:

Destinkeys wrote:

Notice the earlier post refering to the 300C and the M5..? Sure, make real life comparisons all you like, but how about some comparisong to game life? I mean, if not about the game, isn't what you posted something for the General Racing forum?


that was that post....I made a post of my own with a question of my own....answer it or move on.....dont change my question...it just confuses things.

 

  The way i see it .....PP is the same as putting weights on a fast guy so a fat guy can keep up with him..... when they shouldnt be on the field together.


So sorry. Of course, YOUR post should be considered before anything that came before it is considered... LOL. Moving on...

 

Strange, BTW... in horse racing, weight being added to a faster horse or a lighter rider is EXACTLY how the field is evened. It's called handicapping. Sounds an awful lot like the PP system, eh?

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Re: thatRe: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 3, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

Lordmarshal wrote:

Destinkeys wrote:

Notice the earlier post refering to the 300C and the M5..? Sure, make real life comparisons all you like, but how about some comparisong to game life? I mean, if not about the game, isn't what you posted something for the General Racing forum?


that was that post....I made a post of my own with a question of my own....answer it or move on.....dont change my question...it just confuses things.

 

  The way i see it .....PP is the same as putting weights on a fast guy so a fat guy can keep up with him..... when they shouldnt be on the field together.


So sorry. Of course, YOUR post should be considered before anything that came before it is considered... LOL. Moving on...

 

Strange, BTW... in horse racing, weight being added to a faster horse or a lighter rider is EXACTLY how the field is evened. It's called handicapping. Sounds an awful lot like the PP system, eh?


Crap.... I fell into your trap.... my bad

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

[ Edited ]
Feb 3, 2013

Feldynn wrote:

Lordmarshal wrote:

Lordmarshal wrote:

I have a question ,  its real life.... You have a chrysler 300c.. I have have a 911 Porsche .   We both get stage 3 engine , racing pipe and suspension kit...... Which car is faster?


Depends on many other variables like: are we running the same weight / power, is it a drag race or a track race, what base model 300C and 911 are we using with those upgrades, are you looking for an advantage by racing a sports car against a luxury sedan, what downforce are we running, then there's the driving aids, there's also weather / temperature.  Too many real life variables Smiley Happy.


Lol ... Semantics 


 

Semantics?  Nah, more like avoiding a leading but vague question.  Generally speaking of course you'd expect the Porsche to be the faster of the two, if we were to get semantic about it it might go something like this:

 

I'd say "Oh of course my Chrysler would win.  I'm using the top of the line SRT tuned 300 with the biggest engine, best brakes and other fancy doodads compared to your rusty, old, basic 911 from the 60s that's got more miles on it than the Voyager probe".

 

To which you might reply "Oh no, I meant you were using the most basic 300 available with the tiniest engine and the soft / fluffy comfortable suspension where as I'm using a top of the line AWD Porsche with the best of everything.".

 

At any rate, what does trying to compare two completely different cars in the real world have to do with the PP system?  As I said before I was just trying to point out that in races involving multiple similar marques (not a fat / slow family car vs. a light / fast supercars) simply using weight / power doesn't always work because cars can still be uneven and that's where something the PP system was supposed to pick up the slack.

 

Even with the PP system (broken or not) I wouldn't expect two vastly different cars like the Chrysler 300C and the Ruf RGT to be competitive at the same PP (or even at the same power / weight for that matter) because they're completely different cars.  However I would expect the 300C and say a BMW M5 or Lexus IS F to be more evenly match because they are much more similar cars.   (LOL..This is my point)

maybe im stating incorrectly....As a person who plays the game just about every day i see things on gt5 that just wouldnt happen in real racing...thats all.  certain cars shouldnt beat certain cars ...and I know.. its a game but if its called a simulator it should simulate.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 4, 2013

The truth is, in real life racing, there is NOTHING out there that allows any car whatsoever, with any level of upgrading (or downgrading) whatsoever, to compete with each other on anything but the most casual of track day racing. Any serious racing is done with far more restrictions than any HP/weight standards. In fact, most of them have rules packages and standards descriptions many, many pages thick.

 

Sure, it's nice of PD to attempt something that SORT of makes an effort to handicap the field, but expecting it to actually work enough for anything other than a casual, non-serious bit of a lark race is unrealistic at all. You want close, even racing, you HAVE to go much further than PP/weight.

 

And, because of this, our primary need isn't a better PP system (it's never going to be great), but better compliance and selection filters. We are capable of working out what should race with what, but no mathematical system ever will.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 4, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

The truth is, in real life racing, there is NOTHING out there that allows any car whatsoever, with any level of upgrading (or downgrading) whatsoever, to compete with each other on anything but the most casual of track day racing. Any serious racing is done with far more restrictions than any HP/weight standards. In fact, most of them have rules packages and standards descriptions many, many pages thick.

 

Sure, it's nice of PD to attempt something that SORT of makes an effort to handicap the field, but expecting it to actually work enough for anything other than a casual, non-serious bit of a lark race is unrealistic at all. You want close, even racing, you HAVE to go much further than PP/weight.

 

And, because of this, our primary need isn't a better PP system (it's never going to be great), but better compliance and selection filters. We are capable of working out what should race with what, but no mathematical system ever will.


That.  In its entirety.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 4, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:
We are capable of working out what should race with what, but no mathematical system ever will.

Do you use the PP system now or do you spend your time figuring out all of the vagaries between 1,100 cars to make the perfect matches, then go on-line to run them? You could do it now, if you really wanted to do so.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Feb 5, 2013

MastrGT wrote:

Do you use the PP system now or do you spend your time figuring out all of the vagaries between 1,100 cars to make the perfect matches, then go on-line to run them? You could do it now, if you really wanted to do so.


At the moment, I am content with spec racing the Recommended list, but I would be ecstatic if it were radically enlarged. Then true 'No Tuning' races of cars tested for lap equivalency would be a thing of reality.

 

The problem right now of PP based 'No Tuning' rooms is that you cannot scrutinize, or force any car back to stock. I have never understood why some upgrades cannot be removed. You would think, now that 'No Tuning' has been added as a lobby choice, that the need for the full stock restore is pretty important. Nor is it easy, in public rooms, to keep having to type over and over again, for each new entrant to the room, what the car choices and restrictions are. No problem for organized Leagues, but a nightmare in public pickup rooms!

 

That's the beauty of the Recommended list. Lobby host can select which cars you can choose from, and cars are bone stock. If the choice were radically larger, it wouldn't take long for lap testing to quickly handicap them, and show which are extremely close on a variety of tracks. Then you can write down the 'groups' that allow close, even racing (maybe not QUITE as even as one car spec, but MUCH closer than we can get with shuffle, or PP based 'no tuning' rooms) and quickly select them for each race and the room can make its pick without any typing at all..!

 

Anything that makes the Host's job easier is OK by me!

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