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PlayStation MVP
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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

[ Edited ]
Jan 17, 2013

bamboo4wt wrote:

Ultimately at the 450 to 550 pp range, that seems to dominate the open lounges, there were a few ringer cars that were begining to make those rooms very one dimensional.


That would include the Suzuki and the fan car, so how do they perform now compared to before?

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 17, 2013

Maybe it's the wrong thread to bring this up, but perhaps all this PP furor shows that perhaps the importance of 'spec' racing is greater than ever..?

 

I mean, the bottom line of the PP system was to provide a numerical system that theoretically would allow you to pick a specific PP, and if your car hit the PP mark, it was competitive. If not, all it is is a system where the cars that exploit the system the best becomes the one that anyone picks if they wish to remain competitive. By a process of elimination, the car that inevitably finds its way to the podium the most (in well matched rooms) becomes the car to choose. No matter WHAT form the calculation takes.

 

But if the goal is tight, even racing, spec racing seems all that truly works. If you are in the exact same car, with only the exact same upgrades allowed (or disallowed), there is tight even racing. Mission accomplished! As I said earlier, even in pro racing, the 'evenness' is tweaked right through the season to try to make non-one-design racing as close as it can be. So we either start to do our OWN hand tweaks to cars' ratings (perhaps a selection of cars, and average lap times in the hands of the best drivers being used to determine what power limit or ballast added is determined to level the playing field best) or we end up with a few runaway cars that we either have to use, or risk being blown away.

 

Maybe now is the time to step up pressure on PD (if we think they might be looking for easily implemented ideas) to vastly increase the choice of 'spec' cars we can choose from, or at the least, a way to impose either a host's car's upgrade path to all other drivers in the room, or a way to standardize upgrades and tuning options. I'd certainly like an option that disabled ALL upgrades except suspension and transmission, to allow the driver to tweak ONLY gear ratios and suspension setup. I think you'd get some pretty close racing that way!

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PlayStation MVP
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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

[ Edited ]
Jan 17, 2013

The purpose of having a fair PP system is to allow varied cars with similar PP values to be close enough to get a fair race, without having to worry about ringer cars spoiling the fun. A managed way of having unregulated races in a dynamic on-line environment.

 

Creating such a system is no easy task from PD's end. I've seen games designed to do this with a maximum as low as 2 cars in the field. GT5 could have a hundred or more.

 

If that goal of "fair" cannot be attained, then the players will figure something out. In the meantime, it looks as if PD is willing to experiment, for which I am grateful.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 17, 2013

In order to be able to do races with a certain spec and see it enforced, I have made suggestions in the past.  The easiest for the players would be having access to the Tuning Sheets of everyone's cars while in a lobby.  Sorry, but if you were in a real race, the stewards would have access to your car to check it out.  So maybe this but with just the room owner having access?

The problem in my opinion would be that this could take more RAM than would be available with the online race module loaded.  So another way, easier, and less of a RAM hog?

In an online room if you hover over a person's name you can see several bits of data.  Basically their Driving Options.  Could four bits of car data be added here?

HP of the car.  Torque of the car.  (Peak power RPMs would be nice for those too, but...) Weight of the car.   Weight distro of the car. 

 

A person's legal "secret tune" would be safe.  But if you played games with the power or weight to get an unfair advantage, it'd be there for everyone to see.  The coding to display would be pretty trivial and it should be pretty slight on the ram.  And the data in question should be there in memory already I'd think, but could be wrong...

 

This would let us SET spec races, and have a way of at least checking it.  It'd make PPs, which are a great idea, less neccessary in organized races.

 

Ideas?

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 17, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

If we look at how REAL racing series handicap unequal cars, we can quickly see that there really isn't a 'one size fits all' mathematical approach to it all. Real race series (BTCC, for instance) will add or remove ballast as the series progresses to try to even out the racing.

 

Expecting PD to succeed at something the pros fail at is simply asking too much. This wide brush to solve specific problems does not seem to have done anything than upset a system that wasn't well balanced in the first place. Perhaps it is time for PD to address the issue the same way the pros do? On a per-car basis. By testing and comparing. And seeing how different cars stack up against each other. The mathematical approach has not worked.

 


Regarding the way the BTCC and other racing organisations try to balance out their cars I'm fairly sure they DO have a generic "one size fits all formula" to initially balance all the vehicles.  By that I mean all the race cars already have to meet a pre-defined spec in order to qualify, here's a fictional example of what I mean:

 

Engine = 4cyl up to 2800CC

Power = up to 280hp

Weight = circa 1100kg (plus or minus 10kg)

 

So right off the bat they already have some degree spec to give the cars some degree of balance, that's not a factually exact example of what they actually do but hopefully it gets my point across.  The additional ballast you mentioned is usually (though not always) just a reward for success to try and keep the field as balanced as possible and limit the possibility of one car / drive combo from dominating the races through the course of the season.

 

While PD's attempts at the generic "Performance Points" equalizer system have always had flaws the main problem with this latest change is that while it wasn't perfect before it's now wildly inappropriate to the degree that people are noticing production cars at the same PP now have considerable power / weight differences (as I noted with the corvette example).

 

Perhaps you're right in a way that PD should take some cues from organisations like the BTCC, by that I mean if they allow us to limit all 3 of the main performance numbers at the same time (power, weight AND Performance Points) .  From my experience with the previous PP calculation system having cars limited to all 3 numbers actually provided some good, close mixed racing, sure there were still the odd car that might be better than others but it was always much more balanced than when just using hp / kg OR PP.

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 17, 2013

dmcallis wrote:

In order to be able to do races with a certain spec and see it enforced, I have made suggestions in the past.  The easiest for the players would be having access to the Tuning Sheets of everyone's cars while in a lobby.  Sorry, but if you were in a real race, the stewards would have access to your car to check it out.  So maybe this but with just the room owner having access?

The problem in my opinion would be that this could take more RAM than would be available with the online race module loaded.  So another way, easier, and less of a RAM hog?


DM, I think if the game can handle loading your own tuning sheets it could also handle loading someone else's.  you hover over their name or click on it, as you suggested.  Then open up that car's tuning sheet.  It would load in the exact same way as yours do.  It could then specify whether they are currently using A, B, or C sheet.

 

If that person is already in the pits, then you'd have control over knowing that they haven't gone and changed their sheets on you ;D

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 18, 2013

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of this whole "Fastest cars" deal. Isn't it all down to the driver at the end of the day?


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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 19, 2013

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of this whole "Fastest cars" deal. Isn't it all down to the driver at the end of the day?

 

In a word no.

 

Simple test for you:

 

Time trial a Lancia Delta & a Mustang GT (both premium cars- both similar PP levels), if you are the same driver then the 6s difference on Madrid track (for example) is purely down to the car.

 

Yes a really bad vs really epic driver combination could make this race close but in reality, the car wins.

 

As there is no rating system in on-line play then as long as you are happy with what you are producing in the car you have chosen then who the hell cares?

 

 

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

[ Edited ]
Jan 24, 2013

In looking at and thinking about this I have a hypothysis.  Could this be right? 

 

Two words:  Wheel Spin.  Longer idea: Can a Car actually USE all that HP/Torque?

 

PPs are not designed for ovals.  It is designed for road courses, your typical circuits.  And for the "power out of the corners" type layouts, sometimes too much is bad.

 

Take for example the TVR Speed 12.  The definition of "too much".  This is from even before the update, but all I have is the new numbers, so that is all I can post here.  But I know it was simular before.

"Stock" it is at 837hp/680ft-lbs/1020kgs for 574PP.  And even stock you have to be careful with it.  Power to weight is just at or slightly beyond the edge.  This is talking NO TCS.

Okay, now put the Engine Stages on it. Stage 3 takes it to 915hp/714ft-lb/1020kgs for a gain of 2 PP... 78hp gains 2PP. 

Now, The Turbos and Supercharger do this:  There is no stage 1...

Stage 2: 952/768/1040 for 575PP.  Yeah, you LOSE a PP for 37hp and 54 ft-lbs.  But you gain a lot more wheelspin.

Stage 3: 998/760/1040 for 566PP.  Again, try to come out of a low-speed corner and use all that power.  I dare ya.

Supercharger:  1027/856/1040 for 556PP.  In a straight line with distance to get there, it will MOVE.  Try to get to speed too quickly though and "it ain't gonna work too good..."  LOL

 

Is it just possible that the new tire grip and wear models have forced PD to go back and correct the PPs taking into account the new levels of grip?  They have fooled around with grip and seem to have finalized it.  It'd make sense to now redo the PPs (which have always taken into account a car's ability to USE the power it has) now and they have.  Have they maybe not have gotten it as wrong as we thought initially?

 

Remember I had a couple of examples in my garage.  Very overpowered cars, but being run on an oval, so that's OK.  The two Mercs for the same power were giving very different PPs.

But then comparing the cars, that may be right.  The SL600 is a wonderful car, very high-tech; but is it a SLR?  No.  The SLR wins the PP battle because it is designed to better USE the power, Oval notwithstanding.

 

One more bit of proof:

 

Take that maxed out TVR.  The one with the light backend.  Weigh down that rear by putting 200kg as far back as possible.

You have the same Power, the same torque, but 200kg heavier right where it'd need the extra weight.

 

You get 599PP...

 

Maybe we should reopen this discusson before we look foolish to PD by asking them to "Fix" what may not be broken.  Anyone else willing to do some testing?

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Re: Update 2.10: PP recalculation

Jan 24, 2013

I wonder how that would apply to the different drivetrains.

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