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First Son
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 28, 2012

Where to start? First of all, I respect EVERYONE's opinions, criticisms and suggestions. There's been some amazing posts to the original post and enjoy the intelligent discussion between everyone. Kudos for keeping things civil. I come here now and then to gain an insight to tuning or driving theory suggestions or tweaks that have been discovered, never posted, and as such won't be able to accurately post quotes or cite examples from other posters. It isn't out of disrespect, but rather because the citation process would take longer than writing my own post.

The original post was incredibly personal, and you can feel the emotion of the words written by the author. Their frustration is palpable. I do agree with the opinion that while GT5 is an amazing game (and my personal all-time favorite racing game), it is deeply flawed. The idea that we can influence the development of updates to address what each of us perceive to be deep flaws in the game itself is flawed. Neither Sony nor PD are heartless capitalists, nor are they slaves to the requests of millions of gamers. However this threads' original author is correct in asserting that it is strange that certain issues (which appear to us as being simple fixes) remain unresolved. And I'm not referring to wheel customization. I'm referring to something as simple as the car description of the generation 1 Corvette. Many of the PSP's GT car descriptions were imported into GT5 and the generation 1 Corvette was given the Silverado SST's description. An oversight that made it into GT5. An oversight that has persisted beyond every game update so far. Go and check it out. Now, I don't take it personally, but I don't think such an oversight would have occurred to the generation 1 GTR. I'm sure that there are other examples, but this is what comes to mind as "simple bugs that PD refuses to address."

99% of my racing is done with the on-disc events and the Seasonal Events; I RARELY ever race against other players. The reason for that is not the point of this thread or this post. Another person asked if, in light of GT5's flaws, would we continue to play if not for the experience of racing online with friends. My reply is that I will continue to play in spite of the flaws because it has a bit of sentimental value to me, growing up with my younger brother and playing for countless hours. I play and collect multiple versions of cars in anticipation of giving them to my brother when he finally gets his PS3 online. It's hard to explain but I play not because I feel entitled to an opinion that will change GT5 updates or development, nor do I play because "it is what it is and I can't change anything" ... I've never fully thought about it because it is just a game, and when I play my mind isn't really concerned with why it is I'm playing. Mostly I play because I can "drive" cars on tracks that I'll never sit in or experience in my life. My online racing experience has been a positive one, and look forward to the day when my brother and I can join an online event together.

Someone posted that the Internet's ability to disseminate information instantly has given rise to a group of gamers who feel that "no news is bad news" and that we should essentially be happy with what we get when we get it. Again, I understand that the development team's priorities, corporate relations, contracts, financial responsibilities, other development projects, can not be influenced by the millions of gamers. There's far more going on than we realize. However, it would be a massive mistake if the development team ignored the fans altogether. And, yes, I realize not every idea is a good idea. But my PERSONAL interpretation of a good idea are the ones that, to me at least, seem to be relatively simple fixes. Car lists are great in theory (I'd love the 2012 Camaro ZL1, Ford Raptor, BMW M1, Toyota Hilux, or the Kia Cee'd to sling around the Top Gear track), but licensing fees, and development time & cost are factors that influence inclusion and are beyond our knowledge. I'd rather see the ability to clone paint chips, purchase/unlock all paint chips from a specific manufacturer or model, adjust the in-car cockpit driver's height (I'm 6'3" and because the "stock" driver is about 5'5" I never use this view), specify what part of the car to paint a new color (ie if a car has racing stripes choose to paint the main body or the stripes themselves), displaying the credit/experience/car rewards for all on-disc races would be nice, a manual update describing to new users why your rally navigator says "9 left" and what it means, an option to turn off your rally navigator's audio, an option to move the rally map out of the MIDDLE of the screen and over to the left like ALL of the game's other maps, and a description of what will be unlocked when you complete certain events (telling a player WHAT they will unlock would give them a reason TO complete the events that would most enrich their experience). The descriptions of what I've listed as being "simple fixes" are MOSTLY text additions to existing on-screen info and really can not be THAT difficult or time consuming to develop. Full disclosure: I'm a web developer and write code for a living and although I'm not a PS3 developer I can tell you that on-screen additions that are text-based (not graphics-based) are relatively easy to implement.

Yes, Yamauchi-san has a unique vision that he feels passionate about pursuing, but there is something I feel has become overlooked. His attention to detail in every premium car and track is wonderful, but there is a growing case of "forest for the trees" in that while PD is creating a work of art, it is a PRODUCT for consumers. It is my belief that video games have unique challenges to overcome as products because they have to address so many different cultures, languages, morays and subsequent interpretations. So, even though I personally find it frustrating that there is such an overwhelming number of Japanese cars in the game, I understand that those were Yamauchi-san's influence to create the game in the first place -- if it were up to me there'd be far fewer variations of GTRs and a wider range of European and American vehicles -- and we cannot fault him for wanting to pay homage to that which he loves... However, it is a product that must address consumer demand, and consumers and critics alike have been outspoken about GT's stunted growth from GT4 to Prologue to GT5. I understand that track and car development (rendering, scanning, code-writing, testing, etc) takes time, but I think I speak for many when I say that it'd have been nicer to have the ability to compare three or four cars' stats side-by-side (like you can on most auto maker's websites) to figure out which one/version of one you want to buy/race than to have so many Nissan GTRs? PD could have sold sets of GTRs (and others such as NSX or Supra) in DLC packs (such as LeMans-spec bundles or all the versions of a specific model's generation) to those that wanted them. This would have reduced the number of in-game cars, but could have given PD time to work on the game's ergonomics/user interface. Yes, I know that some of you are going to cry "foul" and point to Forza Horizon's recent news of day-one DLC and say you're happy GT5 included so many cars on-disc. But when so many cars are so incredibly similar (although I have the GTR in mind, I in no way have an axe to grind against it; it's a remarkable work of engineering) are we really, REALLY getting 1,000 cars on-disc in the game? I'm really shocked that the Bugatti Veyron (and other new cars) was essentially ported over from GT PSP data as a standard car. That vehicle is the automotive industry's Concorde moment and it is a "standard" car.

But regardless of Yamauchi-san's vision (ie a super-accurate racing sim), his PURPOSE must evolve to reflect his industry's times. It was ok for GT1-4, GT Prologue, & GT PSP to have deep flaws because of their times (hardware, technical, investment, and infrastructure limitations -- and don't cite Prologue as being "current," because we all know and accept that Prologue was a MASSIVELY expanded demo), whereas GT5's current environment demand that developers are more accountable for repairing/fixing/patching problematic code that inhibits a core user's experience of the game. That does not empower us as gamers to "grab pitchforks & torches to storm the castle" and make outlandish demands, but rather to voice genuine concerns with issues that hinder our gameplay experience. Just a couple of examples include Nintendo's handling of the game-breaking flaw in "Metroid: Other M," and "Skyward Sword" where they had to provide workarounds to critical issues; the addressing of "Skyrim's" PS3 issues; even Naughty Dog releases patches for "Uncharted" when they need to balance the multiplayer; and far more examples than I care to list all show that developers do recognize things need to be patched and do so. It'd be wonderful if PD took the input regarding (at the very least) bugs & simple suggestions from the various regions' GT5 forums to craft the updates. In this day and age it isn't asking too much for a DIALOGUE (meaning we critique and suggest from various regions, and PD could blog what's being addressed in new updates) -- it's accountability to your core constituents. I rather think it's quite appropriate to liken PD's dismissal of several flaws to an automaker failing to issue a vehicle recall. As a hardcore GT5 fan, I'd much rather appreciate a massive update that addresses several flaws & issues than any more car/track DLC. Yamauchi-san has achieved his vision of a remarkable racing experience, but I would love to see his vision evolve to reflect the input from fans and critics as any other traditional artist would.

To the author of this thread: I am saddened that you may be on the verge of leaving the world of GT after many years of enjoyment, but want you to know you are not alone in what you've expressed & that we all have different ways in handling our "issues" with the GT5 experience.

There's more I'd like to convey, but feel as though I've taken enough time already. Thank you for reading my opinions on a subject dear to us all. I look forward to reading insightful feedback that furthers our discussion.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 29, 2012

Best First Post Ever....................

 

By Far, too...................................Smiley Happy

 

Welcome to the Playstation Forums.

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Gaming Beast
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 29, 2012

I don't post much anymore since my focus must be elsewhere, but someone said my name and it wouldn't be right not to weigh in. At the  least give 1cent.

 Dan, I love you man...Friends, acquaintances or whatever you want to call it, I don't wake up at 4 am. for to many people, and you are one of them. I would have your back in an instant in any fruitful cause; feed the hungry, house the homeless, end all wars, irrigate the dessert, you get the idea. And I can't say it wouldn't be awesome to influence decisions made by PD but I've always held the notion that this game is less elastic than we as a group might think, not by platform or code, but by the rigidity necessary to develop a Performa. If PD can assume sales to be at or around 8 mill. copies then there is someone very close to the ceo informing him how much he can spend on development. I honestly think they had to have a plan and a schedule, and it probably hasn't changed much since day one. I would be the first to holler corporate greed if they put out half---- games every couple years but it doesn't feel like that to me. They work the plan and fix the game altering bugs, and that may be all they can do. Yes I know, more excuses but it has truly been the best $60 dollars I've ever spent, and hopefully I will continue to enjoy it with you on occasion.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 29, 2012

Wow "Freckles13" had a lot on his mind.Smiley Very Happy

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

[ Edited ]
Oct 1, 2012

Some great points, both pro and con on this thread.

 

As someone that has only recently joined this forum, and been singled out quite a bit for voicing some of the frustrations I feel at many of PD's updating priorities and coding blunders, let me first say, they have always come from a point of love. If there WERE a better game that sims racing on consoles out, I would have it! But I do agree with Dan that much of PD's coding SINCE the release of GT5 has seem to be squarely aimed at casual gamers and first time players.

 

The problem with this is, with a title that is realistically expected to be 4-6 YEARS between iterations, just exactly who do PD think are still playing this game, and who do they think are likely to want to still play this game in another 2-4 years' time? While 'tweaks' to tire wear and drafting strengths are nice, they don't REALLY change the game significantly for the better as a sim. At least, not when FAR more glaring omissions continue to be unaddressed. Issues of in game stewarding (the 'penalty system') are haphazard at best, and PD's recent option to dodge the issue and simply have ALL cars ghosted isn't a feature aimed at anyone interested in sim'ing racing. Rather than address the concerns of the still active GT5 online community, they sidestep it completely.

 

And it's stuff like this that leaves me profoundly worried about PD's priorities. It ISN'T the casual gamer that is going to keep PD afloat for the next 2-4 years. It is the RACERS... So, where is the stuff for us? Where is mixed class racing? All you would need is a split results readout. Where are simple racing related things like fastest lap displayed with the after game results page? Where is a bug-free qualy system? Where are options to reduce (not increase!) ghosting on track to sim real life racing? Where is any system to aid hosts manage public rooms?

 

It has been suggested that PD ARE responding to the majority of posts they see in forums (mind you, most of them with organized 'wishlists' have a far more practical set of priorities), but when you are dealing with a game user demographic that covers casual players that are young and have unending time to post about THEIR concerns (apparently, mostly gripes about this or that car missing, and not being able to rice out every last car they have!) and the more serious racer, who, although quite likely the long-term future of GT5, are not necessarily posting their concerns with the frequency of the kids... Are PD taking this into account? OR are they simply going by volume?

 

You see, while I have been criticized for taking a 'negative' approach, and concentrating on flaws in the game rather than how good it is, isn't this EXACTLY what we more serious players need to be posting, if our concerns are to receive the attention from PD they deserve, if you assume they are looking at volume of posts?

 

The thing that worries me most is, coming from the position that I do love this game, I am not blind to the fact that PD's competition draws ever nearer. They no longer have the roost pretty much to themselves. And, I believe that, if PD want these long gestation periods between games (while their competition is busy working on addressing many of the sim aspects that PD continually ignore) it is us, the more serious players, that will continue to keep GT5 awareness to the forefront, and we the more serious players who will be buying GT5's DLC (which helps fund GT6), and we who will be pre-ordering GT6 in record numbers IF our concerns are addressed, rather than those of probably the MOST casual player, who will have moved on LONG before GT6 comes out.

 

So, detractors nonetheless, I feel it important to keep the issues that address the more serious players on the front burner. Yes, I understand that many of you are getting tired of seeing them come up. But surely, aren't you even MORE tired of PD continuing to ignore them? If you actually want some of these features, letting them wither on the back burner, and get drowned out in the wash of posts about your car, all cars should be Premium (as if the workload to accomplish that task isn't herculean), or the latest fast cash glitch or trading or gifting cars rather than simply racing to EARN them, it IS up to us to keep these long term goals alive.

 

For PD's sake, as well as ours.

 

edit: remark removed

 

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MVP Support
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 29, 2012

Welcome to the GT forum, Freckles13!

 

That was a very impressive first post and I hope you continue to be active here.

 

"And it's stuff like this that leaves me profoundly worried about PD's priorities. It ISN'T the casual gamer that is going to keep PD afloat for the next 2-4 years. It is the RACERS... So, where is the stuff for us?" Destinkeys

 

This important question has been raised (and forgotten by many) for a long, long time.

 

When I started the Monday night races, for example, I promoted it in other active PSN forums here. The response from casual players here has been muted, at best. Less than two years after release and the masses just aren't among us anymore.

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 29, 2012

MastrGT wrote:

 

When I started the Monday night races, for example, I promoted it in other active PSN forums here. The response from casual players here has been muted, at best. Less than two years after release and the masses just aren't among us anymore.


That's what I have observed with the BPC crowd.  When I got GT5 XL in March this year, there were at least 8 BPC members in the race room.  A couple of months later, the number dwindled to 3 or 4 (To be fair, a few of missing players were due to new summer work schedule). There are newer and fresher games that the gamers want to try and play...not sure if it can be reflected in your muted casual players comment, since a few of these players actually have DFGT, G25 with rigs set up as well.
There will come time for me to step back once in a while from GT5 just to do other things in life, or unwrap some of the other games on my wall of shame and play them.  Nevertheless, as long as there is a support for online (or offline for rally type) racing, and with the enthusiasm from a small number of players (it was strongly reflected during my Rally Championship 2000 on PC days, with a couple of the game organisers pushing for additional offline game support from Actualize and Magnetic Field for the game, thus prolonging the life of RC2K significantly) there will always be a core crowd, until GT6 comes along.

 

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

[ Edited ]
Sep 29, 2012

     What a thread this has turned out to be . "a good one I might add" A year ago it could not have happened, would have been locked by now for flaming . With the ebb in the forum , cooler heads have prevailed to have a real discussion about these issues . In reading the posts there are things I agree with and things I disagree to as well . Realizing that everything was said to help better Gran Turismo . Bravo to the conversation.

 

Here are my thoughts on Polyphony Digital, the update & the Forum Community. 

 

    PD has had me from gt1. Every game has had improvement and setbacks. Physics to adjust to. In the past, silence from them in questions that we had. Now there are things that have been changed with the updates that were wanted on this forum. It seems at times that others have a say in what goes into the game. The honorable Kazunori Yamauchi has a vision of GT that must be allowed to grow. I'll buy all the dlc and the next GT too. Heck just on GT5 I have burnt down two fattys and now I'm on a slim, and only play GT.       

 

     On the update it's simple. I am glad we are getting them. It shows a attempt at making it better. I just wonder as we get closer to gt6  if the updates will slow and the silence again. I remember when a update was a rumor and far between, and the lever pullers but that was prologue.

 

  I think of the community as my starting place to gt, most of my friends in gt are and were from here. "rip to the departed" And before, when I was just a lurker it helped me get 100% on gt4. There are those that come to get answers, those to vent,  an those who come and go like me. There is the core, they are the ones who answer the questions grate and small. Along with the names I know, there are a lot of new names in the core group thanks for your efforts, to the cores De facto leader MastrGT Thank's for what you do. This community and others it would not be the same without you. 

 

sorry for the junky post it's been too long 

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

[ Edited ]
Sep 29, 2012

Thanks, ootenaaten, but while I may one of the longest surviving members now, I hope that I'm not leading anyone. That's certainly not what I'm trying to do nor my intention.

 

P. S. Oooo, I like your sig image!

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community

Sep 30, 2012

I found thsi image on my friend's page, and I keep it handy to remind me to keep all things in perspective. It's been helping me a lot , when I need to cope with negativity in all aspects of life. It is certainly not aimed at anyone in particular. Just negativity in general.......

 

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