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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

I'd like to thank everyone for their time in discussing this. For the most part anyway...

 

This was an acid test to see whether the community as a whole really wanted changes or whether they were just moaning and griping and what not for no reason other than staving off boredom. It was a lightning rod to illicit a response to show what the community felt as a whole about the state of the game, and whether it was content with what it had, or if it wanted more.

 

To this end, from what I read, it seems PD will now see that the majority of players don't want to do anything but race with friends.

 

I humbly ask Oz not to flog me later, but I am going to pick on him a bit as the example to test the the proof. It's not a personal attack, but it aptly fits what I'm trying to say, and demonstrates the trend I've been watching develop in the forum lately.

 

In the thread, he mentions the essential car list. I know it bothered him that it did not garner the support he had hoped, and he began to question whether it should "remain open" or not. It's a terrible thing to put so much time and effort into something and have it go to waste.

 

I can sympathize with that in all the garbage I had to deal with in trying to make FOGY a reality long ago. On the surface, it was a wonderful thing, but underneath, behind the scenes it was far uglier. People accusing people of cheating, backbiting one another, sending PMs because they thought I offended someone.

 

Oz went through countless posts of simply "please post according to the rules". There was a reason for them, but many can't read, or didn't deem the time needed to do so as important enough as long as they could shout a few car names as they ran by.

 

And then here, where the reality of does GT5 really need some improvement, where loyalty is brought into question, where PD is brought before the court and rubber meets the road... Where a forum member lays down the gauntlet so to speak.

 

"I just like to race with my friends".

 

That's the response. No support for the other people in the community that want to see change. No recognition that his own car list is part of that change, although he did refer to it in another post.

 

In that post, he speaks of mixed messages... Yet here,  In essence, he clearly is sending the mixed message he posts about. He wants input Stephanie, yet is content to not have that input. He wants support, yet is content to not be bothered if he doesn't get any.

 

I don't use this as a chance to make Oz look bad, but as a pattern of behavior I've seen developing over time as things have moved forward.

 

This sense of we want change, but we don't want it bad enough to want it. We go through the motions, make some attempts, but we don't follow through. We don't get organized, we don't do anything but contradict ourselves in every other thread about what we want and don't want.

 

This was the reason for my post from the start, to find out if it would bring those that wanted communication with PD and change together and unite their voice, giving them a rallying point to organize a bit more and seriously begin to lobby PD in a united way to both ask for, explain and demonstrate implementation of changes that would make the game better...

 

Or whether the community would back away and shuffle their feet and smile and say "..no, no, really, it's fine..we like it just how it is.."

 

I thank those that stepped up. I commend your stand. But as all the world and PD can plainly see, as a community there is a majority of players that really don't want anything changed bad enough to stand the ground. Some are simply happy to race, some are fine with accepting what is, and some are able to excuse PD for "trying", laud them for features we don't like or use and happily relay that they too get to race with their friends. Even though one of the most wanted changes over time, improved lobby and lounge tools, would make that a better experience for all of you who do so.

 

We make excuses to allow PD to carry on as usual. We accept what is... And in the end, that is all that stands.

 

Just a short time ago, we railed against them for change, railed against them for the desire for meaningful input, railed against them for wasting time on "features" no one wants... But when push came to shove, we were more than content to just sit back and accept the status quo.

 

From nothing nothing comes.

 

For those that want change, I'm sorry, but you'll need to find a new island. Whether any of us realize it or not, or whether we want to accept it or not, this thread and it's responses have undermined the effort to have changes made because the consensus majority opinion is that the game is fine, just as it is.

 

No one else matters. No one else's enjoyment of the game even enters into the equation.

 

Those that have spoken have taken their enjoyment and deemed it enough for us all. As they are the majority, it is only the minority that wants these other things, and as such, changes such as we would want are not needed by most of those still playing the game.

 

Those that say "I'm happy, therefore you should be happy too" have won the day, and as such have taken any wind those that wanted to have changes made from their sails, leaving those that wanted more from GT5 as a minority.

 

That is not to say that's a good thing or a bad thing... It simply is. It is what it is and nothing more.

 

As for those that posted about racing friends, I do have query...

 

All of these friends you speak of, if they were truly friends would you not at least support them for the friendship, even if you didn't need or want what they wanted as badly..?

Isn't that what friends do...? Support one another, gather together and help one another..?

 

Apparently friendship means something different here. Just some time on the track and nothing more..?

 

I dare say those are acquaintances, not friends.

 

I dare say we are not really a community. We are thousands of individuals with little concern for anyone else's enjoyment of the game.

 

We don't support one another, we bicker and quarrel and fight like children. We play troll games and "hah hah, I reported you first". We cut one another down and attempt to make them the fool, we make statements and assertions and rail against those that would speak up, as if quelling a riot. How dare anyone question PD, or question the game. Yet in another thread it's "Oh, I would LOVE to have this or that".

 

We take offense to everything, even when we post the same things at someone else in another thread. We act with incredulity when someone does the same back to us.

 

We get angry and make post after post and rail against the one who speaks of apples, because we're trying to tell them we use oranges here. We tell him he should try oranges, they're good..! We make no effort to identify we're comparing apples to oranges, but instead make post after post "enough about apples already, we only like oranges.."

 

When we finally break through that barrier, and indeed start speaking of apples, we suddenly find agreement to a point, we actually have some intelligent dialogue... For a time. Then we revert back to pointing, prodding, abusing, cracking and cutting until a thread is shut down and locked.

 

We make little effort to really understand one another.

We make little effort to accept another's views, or work together.

We waste our time trying to prove who's wrong, who's wronger and who's just a plain moron.

We waste our time tilting against windmills while others cut our horses legs out from under us.

 

"Yeah, so what's your point...?"

 

Exactly. That's the point right there.

 

Don't try to understand, just get impatient. It's OK, I understand you have 4 other posts to read.

 

But because you asked, and because a few of you are actually wondering, it's a simple thing really.

 

I can't leave something without a reason.

 

I can't just walk away because I feel like it. I'm a company man until the company changes my mind.

 

I like everyone until I am given enough just cause to not like them, and even then I always leave the door open a crack and the light on in case they should want to come back.

 

I'd like to thank you all for giving me that reason.

 

I can't watch another day in this forum of people cutting each other down, of ridiculing them through smiley face masks, of turning every serious discussion into family feud, of watching good men and women take the time and effort to try and make a difference only to be mowed down under the apathy of a "community" that loves nothing more than to eat it's young.

 

"Yeah, but you're just as bad..!.."

 

No, actually I'm worse. I willfully admit I am as much a part of this cycle as anyone else. I make no claims of Saint Hood.

 

If anything, I am the worst offender here. Because I hold nothing sacred, and because of my amazing ability to say things in a way that's guaranteed to be misunderstood, I have been the cause of many issues and problems.

 

Because I have to argue a point to fully understand it, I am a difficult person at best. I come across as a know it all, as an A holistic martyr impaling himself on every "just be" cause imaginable. My desire to understand, and to answer the question "why" drives me well beyond the scope of normal forum persons, and can at times put much strain on other members of the forum as they put up with me. Sometimes I break through, and they understand something from a new perspective. Other times they don't, and revert back to being their obnoxious, boorish selves and carry on slaughtering anything they can lay their keyboard to.

 

The problem is I care. I actually care to much. I don't know how not to.

 

I care about everyone, about everything. I''d give my right arm to see everyone here get the perfect game they want, and would fight to electronic death to give it to you. I am as passionate as the come, and will hurl myself into the fray for the sake of anyone going under.

 

I wanted to see GT5 realize it's potential. I wanted to have some real controls for lounges and lobbies. Some real race car looking race chassis for standard cars. Some real numbering options, some real wheel options. I wanted a better game.

 

But with the help of all who posted here I can now see that in many of your minds, you already have it... And as such, I am not needed. I am fighting an unnecessary fight. I am fighting for something that I want to see. The fact I that I read in so many other threads that others wanted to see changes like these too becomes irrelevant.

 

In here, I find that this is not the case, the game is fine as is. I needed to know if that was the truth of it or not. If there really was a need for change or not. 

 

I can't deal with issues GT5 still has like most of you can. I can't accept the wasted time and effort of PD on useless "upgrades" while leaving basic lounge functions untouched that would allow me to relive some of the history, the glory and the nostalgia of motorsport in years past because I can't have simple tools to regulate cheating or set up a room to make it work without relying on everyone's honesty.

 

And I can't recreate the days of my youth in my Uncle's 66 Malibu SS. The 396 was so loud you couldn't hear yourself scream. They didn't realize the radio was broken for over a year.

 

It was Red and Black, it was all motor and it had... Yes indeed, it had American Torque Thrusts on it in all their glory and splendor.  A buddy of mine had a 69 Charger with the same rims. I can't go back to those few remaining memories I have left, reach out and touch that small time of happy days and sun and a future so bright (..I had to wear shades..) because GT5 doesn't allow me to.

 

ATT's on muscle cars was never just a lack of a choice for me, it's a connection to my past, and my soul.

 

Instead, we're all happy fun time OK with the game as it is, and PD need not worry.

 

You'll all be in line for GT6, and PD will sell another 8 million copies or so. Well, 7,999,999 anyway.

 

GT5 has always been more than just a game to me. As a person who sees potential, it pains me to see such potential wasted. 

 

On a personal note, after my head injury... It was GT5 that enabled me to reconnect with my self. To relearn to speak. To relearn to walk, to relearn how to talk to others. This forum helped me relearn to type, to (somewhat) reason, to practice and retain communication skills I nearly lost for good. It was my therapy, my connection to who I was, my path to regaining the tiny parts of my past self that remain. It wasn't just a game, it was a life line to come back from a concussion and come as close to being a whole person as I will ever be. GT5 was more than just a game, it saved me a life of sitting in a chair drooling on myself.

 

For those that understood this, I am forever in your debt for the fight you put up, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

I thank you Ex for allowing me the honor of helping you, and for your ability to be as tenacious and technical right back at me.

I thank you MATTCLK for allowing me to here you laugh, to hear you cry from it, to see you win, and to help me discover the joys of tea.

I thank jaejsteele for all those 4 AM talks about quantum physics and runs in the FOGY cars in days long past. I miss them.

I thank SE427, though things have been rocky awhile, the time we spent testing got me through so many hard days.

I thank dmcallis. Your courage outshines the sun, and that 1st day in Oz's room with your MIC is one I'll never forget, brain damage or no.

I thank no_affiliations, my twin. I never fully met me until I met you. We were as opposite as people could be, yet identical all the same.

I thank SWERV. I'm not your nemesis, son. I wanted nothing more than for you to turn your giving nature towards your words and be complete. I hope someday you get there, and recognize the harm you can do without realizing it. I pray you let some of you giving come from your posts as well as from your alternate account. Cruel to be kind, in the right measure... It's all I intended for you to see from me. Be at peace my friend, and know you taught me much about myself I didn't see before.

I thank Numbskulled, the best Hockey Goaly Racer in history. Any race without you is never the same. I hope to race w/ you 1 more time...

I want to thank those from GT Sats, it was the one place I could feel somewhat at home when I first started racing online.

I thank those at SCREAM: Edhollonde, Ex, Dawson, Cr0w, psycho, and fiji and the rest. Especially fiji. Always enjoyed your company.

I thank Speedy, the talk of sigs and seeing you progress has been an honor.

I thank White_34, the Scale Model thread brought a few memories back, something I am eternally grateful for.

 

There are more, but my mind can only hold so much. It's been my privilege to race you all, and in some small way teach a little too.

 

I especially want to thank MastrGT and OZ.

 

Mastr has been ever so patient with me, and even when faced with his just as blunt perspective as my own, he has always at least taken the time to hear me out. He hasn't always understood, and I'm sure he rolled his eyes more than once, but I have always admired you ability to state things so clearly, however intentioned or related to the discussion. You are an honorable person, and you always have a way of reaching through the murky depths of my mind and enable me to see with different eyes. We have very different ideas of fun, but I have met very few people who could actually show me the value of their definition of it and expand mine. I am humbled and honored I could share the track with you. Domo arigato.

 

Also, he has done more for the gamers here than any of you will ever know, and you should all thank him properly for that.

 

Lastly, I thank Oz for being the one person who truly accepted me as I am, faults and all, and not holding them against me. For allowing me to be my idiot self in his room whenever I chose to be there and not kicking my dumb buttockal region out when he should have so many times. Until GT5 I had never had anyone like you in my life, and I am truly grateful for your demeanor and your wisdom. Like it or not, I learned. I still have tears thinking of of our conversations of Shift2 and what it meant to you, and I hope that the Essential list gets the support it deserves for all your hard work.

 

However, I will never forgive you if you accept that contract to be the spokesperson for Out Back Steak House in their commercials...

 

To all at the forum, the mod staff, the regulars and the unleadeds, I wish all of you the best. I wish all of you many hours, days and years of racing together, and many joyous moments racing into the sunset. Anytime your in Green Hell, remember to look at the sunset. Take a few minutes and stop to truly take in it's beauty.

 

When GT6 is in the bargain bin with all the DLC included, I'll pop back for a bit.

 

Heck... Maybe they'll actually have the Tire Model settled by then... :smileyhappy:

 

___

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

Thanks for your comments Dan, but I may still flog you later.  I just won't use the one with the spikes.

 

I didn't read that "it seems PD will now see that the majority of players don't want to do anything but race with friends".

 

What I read is that there are many players that want changes, they will ask for them and would welcome them, but if the changes don't come, the racing with friends is more than enough to keep them here.

 

I think that is a big difference and honestly, I don't think your comment is fair to those players.  They care.  

I'm sure we will talk later.  I wish you nothing but good fortune.

 

Don't worry, there is no chance of a contract with the Outback Fakehouse.




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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

That was a humbling reply Dan_Zitions, it definatly puts things in perspective and what you said about us as a community and our actions toward each other is true.

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

acquaintances vs friends.

 

I've started where everyone else did.  A list of strangers, many of them became acquaintances.  Some of those later became friends.

 

Not just "people I like being on  track with" but those who you can tell...  You KNOW they actually care about your well-being and wouldn't be quite the same without your presence.

 

You've made your share of friends Dan.  And in a funny twist of fate, your (and many others') disgust of  certain things that makes you want to stay away from forums and fighting the "good fight" for making GT everything it has the potential to be, is leading you to the same conclusion that others have reached over the years.  Just race with your friends.

 

Because it's clear you aren't going to change the game to the level that you'd like, what you are left with is just your friends you've met through the conduit that is GT5.  Remember we're here for you and that we will always be thinking, even if we don't always vocalize it, "man, it would really be great if Dan was here".

 

You're right, this is WAY more than just a game for a lot of us.  It was and is Therapy.  I needed a virtual world to escape from the real one.  I'm still here, and that is more than I could have predicted 2 yeas ago.

 

How did I get through the past two years?  GT.  Not because it was brilliantly executed, but because a bunch of brilliant and caring people made it work for our therapy.  But it has worn out its usefulness for your personal therapy path.  You have blossomed and healed to a degree you might not have otherwise thought possible.  There is something else meant for your energy now.  You regained your ability to think, write, and teach and LIVE through GT and this community.  now, you have to decide why it was meant to be and how you're going to go about putting it to good use.

 

If you have to leave GT for the most part, just keep that memory so that when you look back you shed the discomfort and think of us, and the things you accomplished along the way.

 

You're ready for "Dan 3.0".  Maybe that life includes some of us, and maybe it includes a little GT once in a while if you can stand it.  That would be nice.

 

as for the community, and this is directed at everyone else, NOT Dan.  We deserve representation.  If you're happy with things exactly as they are and don't want anything that you don't have.  fine.  you're represented just fine with silence.  you're represented just fine with business as usual.  but what about those who aren't?  They need a voice.  If no one else speaks up on their behalf, then the will be using their own voices.  Don't try to silence them.  Don't try to insist that they are just whining or would never be satisfied.

 

We are all individuals with unique qualities.  Don't lump someone into a category.  Trust me, it's tempting and I've done it plenty.  It doesn't work.  It gets us nowhere.

 

You can't read a post and get "oh he's one of THOSE guys".  There are people I've argued with only to better understand them.  It can be done, but only when you have that goal of eventually understanding them as your primary objective.  You can't go into it adversarially, and expect to gain a friend or understanding about a stranger.

 

Dan spoke of potential, and that is the heartbreaking part of it all.  The game, the community, some of us who have gathered here, all have so much more potential than we demonstrate.

 

If there is beef.  Squash it.  Anything less is just begging to let this forum die again and have us all retreat into the nether regions and into safe and secure clubs, associations and leagues.

 

I didn't come here for safe and secure.  I loathe it.  There was enough precident and history between certain groups of the GT community already present and I wanted to be here where they all mingled.  Since then I've grown closer to one side of that fence than the others, but I always regarded everyone as potential allies or friends.  Despite some of the drama between one or two people in particular, I still believe that to be the case.  You can point at me and say something was my fault if that makes you feel better.  You'd probably be right to.  If it makes you feel good then it's a good thing in my book.

 

Do what you will of me.

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Message 34 of 74 (177 Views)
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

Well, I haven't posted anything in what seems a long time. I still wonder around here and there to see what's up, but not to the extent that I used to. With that said, I won't lie, I haven't been around because I simply put GT5 to rest. The reason I did that was a "test". I wanted to see just how long I could go and if I missed the game or not. It's been quite awhile, I used to play it everyday, all day. I've bought all the DLC, even the 3 new cars they just put out. I played the other games I have, yea I have fun with those too otherwise I wouldn't own them. Yes, I have a Need for Speed game, and I'm getting the new Most Wanted one too when it releases Oct. 30th. I don't feel it is a bad thing towards GT5, I just simply remember playing Hot Pursuit and Most Wanted on the PS2 and had a blast, I'm anticipating what the next gen of those games with the Frostbite 2 engine is gonne be like.

 

Anyway, back to my test. I went a month and half without playing GT5. That last pack of DLC with the tracks? I have yet to even race on those tracks. Whether I like it or not, I simply but DLC because it's something different. Some could say that new Subaru is just like the Toyota or the Scion, but I don't know if it's just me but it seems the Subaru has a faster acceleration. 

 

I put in GT5 for awhile on Wednesday, messed around with the new cars and I was done for the day. Last night however, I put GT5 back in and had a blast with that new Muscle Car seasonal series. I don't need cars, I have them all, I don't need credits, I simply did it to see if I could do it. I blasted Daytona away, but the others were a bit of a challenge and it was fun. Afterwards, I continued to play it through various A-spec events over and over with different cars and had a blast, not having a care in the world that I already beat that series. I'm back with GT5, because after my test of not playing it for a month and a half, I wanted to see if it was just as fun now as it was before I started my test of not playing it. I'm back gent's , and it's gonna be another fun ride. Cheers.

 

 

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

Dan_Zitions wrote:

 

GT5 has always been more than just a game to me. As a person who sees potential, it pains me to see such potential wasted. 

 

On a personal note, after my head injury... It was GT5 that enabled me to reconnect with my self. To relearn to speak. To relearn to walk, to relearn how to talk to others. This forum helped me relearn to type, to (somewhat) reason, to practice and retain communication skills I nearly lost for good. It was my therapy, my connection to who I was, my path to regaining the tiny parts of my past self that remain. It wasn't just a game, it was a life line to come back from a concussion and come as close to being a whole person as I will ever be. GT5 was more than just a game, it saved me a life of sitting in a chair drooling on myself.

 

 

 

___


 

Dan

 

While GT5 is not, and will likely never be perfect. Certainly it will never be perfect for everyone.

 

However from what you wrote above it occurs to me.

With all its imperfections, GT5 gave you an outlet, a life line as you put it, that allowed you to pull yourself back from the drooling chair.

 

Had the game been a perfect title, would it have provided that much needed intellectual treadmill to put some tone back into those mental muscles?

 

If your answer to that question is no, then it also becomes an enigma. For while it may not have been everyone's 'perfect' game, it was certainly the 'perfect' game for you.

 



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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

It would take too long on this tablet to quote just this, so I will copy it, instead.

 

"But with the help of all who posted here I can now see that in many of your minds, you already have it... And as such, I am not needed."

 

Both of these statements aren't true.

 

There is a difference between apathy and not feeling in control of change. Every GT player I know has a list of things, great or small, many or a few, important to everyone or not, that they would like to see added or changed. We would be a pretty sorry lot if we didn't. We all have different ways of expressing our desire for change, too, some boisterous, some private. That doesn't mean that anyone is doing it "the wrong way", but we each have to deal with not being at the rudder of this great ship in our own way.

 

At least we are now at a stage of development with the PS3 when, if we find problems, fixes may become available to us. Maybe not at the rate or form we expect, but they do keep coming, fortunately. With the PS3, I expected no less, we all expect more.

 

Managing our own frustrations, though, is an important part of being happy. When I started playing GT, I had my own frustrations with GT, the developer / publisher and the industry and I decided to change or affect things that I could. This is now ending my tenth year at doing everything I (alongside all of you) know how to help improve GT and the relations between the developers, the producers and us fans. I declined being a moderator more than once, so that you would never feel that there was a gap between us, even at the cost of having other advantages. Have I got everything that I want or what fans need? Hardly, but that isn't going to stop me from trying. Nor do I expect any fan to stop wanting GT to get better. My frustrations are just as much anyone else's frustrations. We just have our own way of going about dealing with them.

 

Am I as happy playing GT today as I was when I started playing?  Last night, I spent about an hour racing with some crazies, including being on the Ring, at night, in karts, in the rain. Talk about a riot, and the endorphins were flying. Today, I am right back at trying my best to help improve GT for everyone. So, we just have to manage our happiness and expectations to stay happy. In other words, pick our own battles. More so, we have to pick the right battles.

 

Your second statement is also not true, but I know you know that, so 'nough said. :smileywink:

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

This thread has been cleaned up a bit. Please keep it on topic. :smileyhappy:

 

space_cape!!

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

wow, a lot of crap was kept while my heart-felt and positive comments were discarded.

 

I guess I have received the message that Dan has too.

 

See ya guys.  Hope you get everything you're after.

 

I'll PM the mods to see if they can restore my comments as they were extremely positive.

 

If they are not able or refuse, I'm gone.  For good.

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

exXboxFan wrote:

wow, a lot of crap was kept while my heart-felt and positive comments were discarded.

 

I guess I have received the message that Dan has too.

 

See ya guys.  Hope you get everything you're after.

 

I'll PM the mods to see if they can restore my comments as they were extremely positive.

 

If they are not able or refuse, I'm gone.  For good.


Don't leave XboxFan, I saw your comments and thought they were very positive and inspirational and good guidlines to follow.  Don't leave just because a mod deleted your reply.  It's all good man!!

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