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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 27, 2012

nuTTTz wrote:

 

We should not let our narrow view of the picture prevent us from seeing the whole landscape.


When GT went on-line, it had to get more homogenised, so that it could be universally the same for everyone and PD have to look for changes that affect the majority of players. With that in mind, if we can not see an application for a new feature, we obviously are not part of some majority.

 

That doesn't negate having the desire for some features, such as passworded lobbies or better host controls that are in most good racing games or sims, that would universally help players. The list of really important missing features is pretty narrow, in some respects, so maybe some of us focus a bit more intently on these few.

 

And with on-line updating, our expectations are pretty intense, too. We expect a lot - now!

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 27, 2012

Lord_Beelzebub wrote:

Dan_Zitions wrote:
But it doesn't change the facts, it doesn't change we've been sacrificed to the gods of useless apps and the photo stream.

 


 

Ahhh, I think the photo stream capability is cool!  :smileyhappy:

 

In all seriousness though, I keep in mind that Sony pretty much forced PD's hand in releasing GT5.  As I understand it, PD still wasn't where they wanted to be in terms of completion when they had to release the game.  So at this point I consider GT5 as a "Prologue 2", if you will, and hope that GT6 is THE game that has all the bugs worked out and the features the masses have been requesting.

 

GT5 is endless fun for me, and I continue to hold out hope that GT6 will be even better and also hope that PD is listening to us out here and at least takes our ideas into consideration.


okay so because photostream is one of the things being talked about here... let's really talk about it.  It illustrates one of the most important aspects of this perceived problem with mindset.

IF you like it, fine.  But what is it actually?

 

You take a picture, and you set it to be a "favorite".

 

That makes it go into a que of photos that will be shown in a photostream on the GT website ONE TIME and never repeat, as far as I know. 

 

When I read about the update before it arrived, I thought it would be great, because Photo Mode is great.  I love it as a feature in GT and I don't ever want to see photographic stuff taken out of this franchise.

 

BUT WAIT ONE MINUTE.. how they implemented the feature is totally worthless.  It makes your photo show on their website ONLY and there is no in-game photostream.  There is no way to get into the game and browse through recently posted photos.  There is no way to rate photos to show the community what a good photo is.  I've said it before.  MOST PEOPLE TAKE SCREENSHOTS not PHOTOGRAPHS.  There is no art in many of the shots people take.  But that's not the real issue here.  It's that they spent the time and effort to give us a feature that doesn't accomplish the only thing one could hope to accomplish with a feature like this.

 

To get people to take more photos and share them.  Who is actually doing that?  I haven't touched the feature even one time, and I think I can say I'm a darned good photographer in GT5.  What does that say about the feature?

 

I WANT to share my photos.  I want people to see them without having to post them to Flikr first which has a 200 pic limit for their free service (posting to this website ruins photos BTW).  I want to be able to rate photos and provide something like the "kudos" system to photographers.

 

You should be able to follow the postings of certain individuals more than others, based on whether you've picked the photographer as one of your favorites.  If I like to see eveyr photo that Speedy takes and shares, I should be able to flag him and see them.

 

------

 

on to a few other things...

 

some things that have bothered me for a long time.  some of them were improved upon or fixed and others were not.  menu navigation is a major time constraint in GT5.  They made the menus flow a little better and made you not have to click through as many confirmation screens etc. We have new menu items in the in-race menus and a few more items in the Event Settings and other menus in a lounge.  BUT we still don't have the ability to access the game's options while waiting for a race to start.

 

If I want to change my FFB, I have to exit.  If I want to change the mapping of a button... EXIT.  These are such basic things that anyone who plays would be annoyed with.  SO I have to wonder, how much do they play their own game?

 

And one of the things that keeps us having to go back and releaern the physics system and tuning is the tire model keeps changing.  We learn it, they change it.  We learn it they change it.  That COULD be based on feedback and that they feel they are making it better each time.

 

But from what some people have posted, it seems certain tracks have different tire wear settings than others, and length of race now determines what kind of wear you'll see.  How is that "real" anything?  Let alone a real driving simulator.

 

THEN

 

We get three versions of the same car and we have to pay for two of them.  The suspensions were supposed to be mechanically different.  They have the same exact settings by default.

 

So there's obviously an arrangement for making sure Toyota gets all these cars in the game, and they have no regard to whether we want them or not.

 

The time could have been spent producing a car EVERYONE would want, and sell more DLC's.  There are cars that people from the three different continents where most of the fans reside, would all love.  If you don't know which those are, do some research.  It's what companies do.

 

Instead we get Beetles, Prius', three versions of the SAME CAR, and a rehash of a car we got for free last year and helps promote GT academy and GT and PD.  That self-promotion should be free to us.  Instead, we're asked to pay for the new GT-R.  And if they are listening, where is there a GT-R in almost every car pack and update?  Could you skip putting a GT-R in at least once?  I'm not one of these people who hates the car or wishes PD would stop including so many of them.  But the sheer number of them and consistency in making us pay for them is gettign quite ridiculous.

 

Getting free stuff is AWESOME!  I Love it.  I appreciate it very much!  But when you ask me to pay for something you already gave me for free, I have to scratch my head and then NOT dig deep into my wallet.

 

When the first and second DLC were released, there were some gems... true gems, and some crap too.  Let's be honest.  While seeing a TC version of a Prius is "neat" it is certainly not wanted and hardly welcome.  There is no prius league.  There never will be.  So it's a priority to put cars into the game that probably provide kickback to PD/SONY.

 

while some of the cars were good and some were not, I and many others said, "Let's buy any and all DLC because it sends the message that we appreciate it, and that we will continue to buy it".  But then the car choices became ever more strange.

 

Who knows, I'm sort of speculating, but it seems like they are putting cars into the game that will not only cause us to pay for them, but also may be making deals with automakers to get cheaper access to their licenses by selling the fact that GT5 helps to promote the cars to car enthusiasts.  THEY all win, but if we don't even want the car in the first place, then we as the gamers don't win.

 

So who exactly matters in this equation?  Car enthusiasts and those who love to drive and have money to spend on cars that actually interest us, or maintaining some relationship between different japanese automakers?

 

It seems like PD to Nissan

PD to Toyota

PD to Mazda

 

matters more than PD to Fans.

 

Never mind the dead porsche horse.  I could do without them, and if NOT having Porsche means we do get a lot of other great machines to play with, them I'm okay with it.

 

If they wanted to make sure we know they "got it" the very next update should allow you to put ATT's on the Standard American Muscle cars.  That wouldn't in itself be a huge fix, but it would send the right message.  the "ok we get it" message.  It would be a good gesture of good will.

 

Another thing is the beta-testing changes on us. Please, if that is what's going on, TELL US!  It would be okay to say "between the dates of 10/3 and 10/5 we will be testing out a new online environment and tweaking tire behaviors and draft settings".  Maybe we wouldn't like it.  Maybe we'd have a race scheduled that would need to be postponed.  But professional courtesy would suggest we are told it is going to happen, or at least after the fact, that it HAS happened.

 

Not only that, but I wonder if Kaz realizes we are, most of us, grown ups.  There are many child-safe things in GT and they should remain.  But we want ways ot make it "grown-up safe" too!

 

Why when I get disconnected and try to go back into a room and type "I got disconnected" does the word "disconnected" always turn into **************?

aka Ex_Stream_Tuna (FR's & Racing done here. ExXboxfan = Netflix only)
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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 27, 2012

Sorry XboxFan, I thought he was referring to smartphone apps and Apples new Photostream feature.  I think you're talking about something different than what I thought he was referring to.  :smileyindifferent:

 

I don't know anything about GT5's online photo features.

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 27, 2012

MastrGT wrote:

Some of us contend that they are not listening to our wishes, needs and gripes.

 

They contend that many of the updates since release are based on them.

 

I believe that there is lots of room for better communication, so that we don't have this gulf between our perceptions.

 

From my own participation, I have seen the obvious responses to some of the complaints, concerns and observations that I have forwarded to the GT team. There were direct 1:1 responses to some of them, some of them were immediate. However, there are some serious concerns that still have no obvious fixes and, without some sort of response from them, its difficult to tell just what they are thinking about them.

 

I am not making excuses or trying to explain things for them, but I feel some of the blame for this gulf has to be shared by them and us. We can be pretty harsh, sometimes, and our frustrations boil up frequently when some obvious problems don't get resolved to our satisfaction. After a brief discussion about this problem yesterday, I know that they are concerned about this situation, too, and I plan on continuing to bridge this gap in as many ways as I am allowed.  But things change slower than you all wish, so the lack of response or the lack of explanation makes it difficult to understand what is going on. 

 

However, I don't think this is the time to give up. Don't give up playing and don't give up wanting more and don't give up hope.


Here's the problem; how many "wishes, needs, and gripes" are you going to listen to? For every one idea that's maybe usable, there's going to be countless ones that aren't. Also, I remember the days when there was a saying "no news is good news". Now it's the opposite it seems. Many now are so used to the constant flow of information, where every minute detail is broadcast no matter how irrelevant, that when there's a silence it's actually alarming to some. When nothing gets reported it seems that many start saying "well why aren't they saying anything? What's wrong? If they were paying attention then they'd let us know". I've always been under the frame of mind that if they're busy working on the game, then they don't time to Tweet every detail. 

 

I think Polyphony Digital are doing the best they can, however what they have no control is the countless throngs who believe that the internet is a defacto suggestion box. I think expectations need to be tempered with the very real notion that these are human beings, and they need to have the freedom to be allowed to work without external interference. That's not to say there can't be discussion, but we shouldn't be creating laundry lists and expecting the gang at Polyphony Digital to strictly adhere to them. Part of what used to make video games great was being surprised. You can't be surprised if you dictate every single detail to someone. 

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

OzDaddy62 wrote:

I understand your views Dan and have some background to your frustrations.   I agree, in part, but only to a point.  The following is just my opinion and not necessarily directed at you. 

 

As to the community reaction, one person’s apathy is another person’s low priority.  It all comes down to perspective and choices.  I’ve invested enough in this game and community to know that my choice is valid.   I’m not being apathetic.  I’m not giving anyone a free pass.  I’m just choosing not to be indignant.   I’m choosing not to feel insulted by any perceived slight.  I’m choosing not to let that last straw settle on the camel’s back.

 

I’m not going to close up the shop, or be made to feel like I should, just because others are making different choices.

 

I bought this $60 (give or take) video game nearly two years and have got far more from it than I ever thought I would.    It’s a really good video game but that’s what it is.  I’m choosing to make the most of it.  Sure there are things that I would like to see changed, but I’m not going to let it ruin my fun.

 

Many people and groups have also made choices.  They have chosen to take this great game and make something more of it, to suit their needs.  They have chosen to ignore or belittle some parts of the game while choosing to invest their time and effort in other parts.  The size of that group or the perceived importance of that group does not make their demands any more valid than the person who just wants to have a bit of fun.  No group has ownership of this game.  You choose to buy it and make of it what you will.  I can’t see anything on the game case or in the forum fine print that obligates PD to change the game for the benefit of any one person or group.    PD has chosen to do or not do certain things.  I wasn’t in those meetings and development sessions so I couldn’t tell you why or why not.

 

If anyone chooses to invest their time and effort and happiness in this game, remember it was your choice and with any choice comes risks.  Sometimes there will be disappointments.  Sometimes you don’t get what you want.  If you don’t, then state your case, but be prepared that there might be other cases, other choices, even ones you might not understand.

 

For all I know there is a very outspoken and demanding community in Outer Mongolia who just love the new ghosting feature.  I don’t understand why, but they do.  No offence intended to Outer Mongolians.

 

For every person who has invested in this game and comes on the forum to complain and voice their opinion, there are at least as many that are happy to enjoy the game as it is.   They are not fools.  It’s just perspective, priority and choices.


Captain_Albator wrote:

Here's the problem; how many "wishes, needs, and gripes" are you going to listen to? For every one idea that's maybe usable, there's going to be countless ones that aren't. Also, I remember the days when there was a saying "no news is good news". Now it's the opposite it seems. Many now are so used to the constant flow of information, where every minute detail is broadcast no matter how irrelevant, that when there's a silence it's actually alarming to some. When nothing gets reported it seems that many start saying "well why aren't they saying anything? What's wrong? If they were paying attention then they'd let us know". I've always been under the frame of mind that if they're busy working on the game, then they don't time to Tweet every detail. 

 

I think Polyphony Digital are doing the best they can, however what they have no control is the countless throngs who believe that the internet is a defacto suggestion box. I think expectations need to be tempered with the very real notion that these are human beings, and they need to have the freedom to be allowed to work without external interference. That's not to say there can't be discussion, but we shouldn't be creating laundry lists and expecting the gang at Polyphony Digital to strictly adhere to them. Part of what used to make video games great was being surprised. You can't be surprised if you dictate every single detail to someone. 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I was going to make a huge, long post, but OzDaddy and Captain _Albator's comments rang so true with how I feel, that I don't believe I could express my exact feelings more accurately. Kudos to both for such brilliant insights, and thanks for taking the time to write such concise, respectful and accurate posts.

 

Regards, SWERV_GRIFFIN

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

No disrespect Captain, I'm not replying directly at you, just conveying my thoughts for everyone.

 

As far as wishes, needs, and grips, the ones you listen to are the ones that get brought up the most frequently by the majority of the people who play the game.  How many game fixes from past patches fixed things that people out here and maybe other forum boards complained endlessly about?  How does a game company, any company that produces products for that matter, get feed back about their product to make it better if it's not from the consumer who buys it and uses it?  If I produced a product, that's exactly where I'd go for feedback so I can fix issues in version 2.0.  Do I 100% make a product how I think it should be and hope it sells, or do I involve my potential customers and get their feedback to help ensure that when I put my product on the store shelves, it will sell?  This scenerio might not be the case for version 1.0 I make of something, but it should be from that point forward.

 

Why can't some of the best ideas for a game come from those who play it?  Who says PD has all the answers and has thought of everything?  I'm sure as good as they are, they haven't.  If people can't suggest what we want, or bugs to be fixed in this game for future games, then I think we need to delete the stickied The Essential GT Car List and GT's Quirks, Bugs and Glitches threads.  Were those threads stickied so we can all just pass the time posting our car requests and game issues in them, yet get ignored?  I thought they were put there as they are our best hope for PD to take notice and give us the cars we want and fix the bugs we report.

 

Times have changed, things aren't like they used to be for any company.  We live in the times of a more informed consumer who has the internet as their disposable to make better educated decisions on buying products.  Every company is vying for our money, those who get it are the companies who listen to what their consumers want.  It is the days of the past where game companies just make games solely how they think they should be and hope gamers like them without any input from them.  If you want to make money today, you do market research to learn about your potential consumers and make the products you know they'll want based on the trends of that era. If you want consumer to keep those products, then you listen to them and fix the things they report as broke, and listen to their ideas of how it can be better.

 

These forums are a free market research tool for PD to know what their gamers want.  For them to think we don't have great ideas just because we aren't code writers would be silly IMO.  If PD has the mindset of, "we're going to make these games how we want, don't care about consumer feedback", then that's why PD only sold 8 million copies of this game as SWERV stated in another thread instead of 20 million that they could have.  That kind of mindset to me is also silly.

 

I do agree it's unreasonable for all of us to expect PD to do every little thing thing we all want and think should be, however if you take the sum of all of us and at least 70% of us think a particular game feature would greatly improve the game, I think that's something PD should at least consider.

 

For those out here who get labeled as 'demanding', I think what I just said is also their thinking on the matter.  At least take notice and give it consideration, but it won't get noticed and considered if people don't speak up.

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

It could very well be too, that only 8 Million gamers are obsessed with Racing Games, unlike the 30 Million or more that are obsessed with Shooter games. I don't think that it is a fair comparison, as the two genres of games have little to nothing in common. It would be more fair to compare GT5 to other Racing games. In the Driving and Racing Games sector of the video games market, I think that PD is doing just fine. No need to make it seem like 8 Million sales is some kind of failure................:smileywink:

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

[ Edited ]
Sep 28, 2012

Point noted.

 

I didn't specifically refer to shooter games in my reply even though I was using figures similar to what you used in the other thread.  Sorry for the misunderstanding in that regard.  My point was meant to be, maybe they could have or could be selling more copies of the game if what I said was true.

 

Yes I do agree with you that there is a smaller demographic of gamers who play racing games than shooter games, I think that's always been the case.

 

The concept of PD taking notice and at least considering our most requested suggestions was the point I was trying to make.   And yes I'm sure part of the problem we have is some people make those suggestions in negative ways by the words they use in their replies that make it sound more like complaining than constructive criticism and a legit suggestion.

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

Lord_Beelzebub wrote:

No disrespect Captain, I'm not replying directly at you, just conveying my thoughts for everyone.

 

As far as wishes, needs, and grips, the ones you listen to are the ones that get brought up the most frequently by the majority of the people who play the game.  How many game fixes from past patches fixed things that people out here and maybe other forum boards complained endlessly about?  How does a game company, any company that produces products for that matter, get feed back about their product to make it better if it's not from the consumer who buys it and uses it?  If I produced a product, that's exactly where I'd go for feedback so I can fix issues in version 2.0.  Do I 100% make a product how I think it should be and hope it sells, or do I involve my potential customers and get their feedback to help ensure that when I put my product on the store shelves, it will sell?  This scenerio might not be the case for version 1.0 I make of something, but it should be from that point forward.

 

Why can't some of the best ideas for a game come from those who play it?  Who says PD has all the answers and has thought of everything?  I'm sure as good as they are, they haven't.  If people can't suggest what we want, or bugs to be fixed in this game for future games, then I think we need to delete the stickied The Essential GT Car List and GT's Quirks, Bugs and Glitches threads.  Were those threads stickied so we can all just pass the time posting our car requests and game issues in them, yet get ignored?  I thought they were put there as they are our best hope for PD to take notice and give us the cars we want and fix the bugs we report.

 

Times have changed, things aren't like they used to be for any company.  We live in the times of a more informed consumer who has the internet as their disposable to make better educated decisions on buying products.  Every company is vying for our money, those who get it are the companies who listen to what their consumers want.  It is the days of the past where game companies just make games solely how they think they should be and hope gamers like them without any input from them.  If you want to make money today, you do market research to learn about your potential consumers and make the products you know they'll want based on the trends of that era. If you want consumer to keep those products, then you listen to them and fix the things they report as broke, and listen to their ideas of how it can be better.

 

These forums are a free market research tool for PD to know what their gamers want.  For them to think we don't have great ideas just because we aren't code writers would be silly IMO.  If PD has the mindset of, "we're going to make these games how we want, don't care about consumer feedback", then that's why PD only sold 8 million copies of this game as SWERV stated in another thread instead of 20 million that they could have.  That kind of mindset to me is also silly.

 

I do agree it's unreasonable for all of us to expect PD to do every little thing thing we all want and think should be, however if you take the sum of all of us and at least 70% of us think a particular game feature would greatly improve the game, I think that's something PD should at least consider.

 

For those out here who get labeled as 'demanding', I think what I just said is also their thinking on the matter.  At least take notice and give it consideration, but it won't get noticed and considered if people don't speak up.


Here's the inherent problem with that; a lot of times the "ideas" aren't very good, and bad ideas very often gain traction and become popular. So is Polyphony Digital supposed to implement a bad idea because it's "popular", and the "community", which really isn't a fair representation of Gran Turismo owners because it's really the same few dozen people who contribute to the message board, has repeated it to the point where they can't live without it? That's the real problem. Do things like semi racing really fit into Gran Turismo? Or even motorcycles for that matter? Every idea that the "community" comes up with isn't necesarily good, or even usable. To paraphrase Rodney Dangerfield, the last guy who came up with an idea could have been a maniac! 

 

One thing that I've learned is that companies use focus groups to guage how well something works. If you've ever seen the extras from God of War, they often ask students at local universities to play the game, and then they ask what they liked and didn't like. The focus group is still used in many aspects of marketing and is still viable. The problem using an internet message board is that it often gives you skewed view of what "consumers" want. And how is that fair to other people who might enjoy a feature that Polyphony is designing, but then has to scrap because they cave to pressure from "the community"?

 

The internet has a lot of information, but it also has a lot of MISINFORMATION. It's discerning between the two that often times becomes difficult.  

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Re: Some thoughts on PD, the 2.08 update & the Forum Community ( reposted from thread )

Sep 28, 2012

Here is my $00.02. Like many here, I have been a fan of GT from day 1. Each game was a joy to get as I was just so excited to see what the next GT game will bring. And with each new game came the ups and downs. As we found something that someone didn't like. This is just human nature, to look for the bad and ignore what is good. Now we have GT5. And with online rooms we find things that we want changed faster than before. Not everyone finds the same thing as what may bug gamer #1 is just fine with gamer #2. I must fall in #2. When I picked up GT5, I was a kid in a candy store. Dug right in and explored the game. Doing this with many of my buds on team speak, we found things but still enjoyed And with every update and DLC I was happy. Why? To me this was a bonus from what I first bought and enjoyed, even with the short comings.To me GT5 is 10 times better than it was at day 1. Now I am not a game developer and have no idea what is needed to make major changes to a game. Maybe this is why I don't post anything bad about PD/GT/etc... If there is a update that I feel is not needed or a waste, I just don't use it. It's that simple for me. And, yes, I can't wait for GT6 to come out.

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