09-27-2012 07:02 AM
This is a long post, but as it involves some very difficult subject matter, and some different takes on the forum, the responses I've been reading recently and the (again) somewhat apathetic update from PD, I wanted it out in the open and clearly known instead of buried within a thread so it could be openly commented on by all.
I am interested in knowing if this sentiment is my own, and that of the people I have seen on the boards of other places, and whether the community as a whole is of like mind or not.
No need to quote the entire thing, snip the the non applicable parts from what you wish to address.
Lastly, DO NOT use this as a spring board for insults, name calling, berating or belittling anyone else. I will be reporting any and all such posts to the mods in this thread only. I normally don't report responses such as these, but as recently alluded to in another thread, the mods prefer we report posts, it is preferable to handling it ourselves.
While I may not agree with that sentiment, this is a volatile subject, and one sure to draw some emotion. Please remember that this thread is intended to be a springboard for intelligent, thoughtful discussion of some fairly heavy and personal subject matter.
It is not a place for childish or boorish behavior. I will not tolerate it here at all, and will follow the mods asking to report improper behavior as a viable means to allow discussion without threats, name calling, badgering or intimidation of any kind.
ALL opinions by ALL members posted here are of equal weight and value, and ALL of them deserve the same respect as any post you make.
Please keep this in mind when responding to anything in the thread.
If you would like a response from my side of things, please say so. It is my intent to let all of you hash this through and see where you end up.
It may ell end up just being the longest non answered post in the history of the forums...
But if it is, then the community will have sufficiently answered my question and it will have served it's purpose.
I think that other than the highly questionable use of the feature for 'teaching' a certain line (and just exactly how much of that goes on or has even been requested in any wishlist?), so far, nobody seems to have come up with any logical reason for the feature. This is what seems so odd. It is a feature no-one wanted, that solves no problem we can think of, as a response to no request we know.
If PD have some sort of clue about what this might actually be good for, they must be smarter than the lot of us put together..!
That IS certain...........
***Though I use the posts above as a spring board, it is for the ENTIRE GT5 community, not just these two.***
This depends on how you define "intelligent"...
Yes, PD has some very smart people, but PD also has some very dumb "smart" people.
There's a difference between "book smart" and "street smart". PD is VERY "book smart", but PD is NOT "street smart".
That's why they keep doing such incredibly complex and wondrous yet incredibly useless things. That's why they keep developing complex models that are beyond the realm of intricate and detail, yet can't do simple shadows.
They have a great cart. Normally I'd say they have said cart before the horse...
But in this case, somebody done forgot to even buy a horse. Or it's one of the horses in Oz's thread that's no longer with us.
PD cast the crown of deity in the sand with GT5. They proved beyond doubt they are brilliant yet incredibly dense. They are not gods, if they were they would understand fundamentals ALWAYS come first, not toys, trinkets and useless apps. PD may be smart, but they sure as the hot place aren't "all that and a bag of chips". Or Crisps, depending on what side of the world you're on.
I had a very nice pair of rose colored glasses for a long time.
PD put them under the heel of their boot and made sure I never looked through them again.
We are what we do, and PD has done nothing to help those that fight the hardest for them while wasting countless man hours placating masses that don't exist. They have done more damage to this core group of fans than any poster has at any time with any post through simply turning a blind eye.
That's not opinion any longer, that's now historical fact. Time and again PD has ignored the core fan base and wasted update time and energy on useless items while leaving core game elements unfixed and leaving their greatest fans to waste their time working around their complete lack of regard for "street smarts".
I know you love the game SWERV, I know you love the people. But it doesn't change the facts, it doesn't change we've been sacrificed to the gods of useless apps and the photo stream.
Someday, maybe someone at PD understands this concept. Someday maybe they don't. Someday when they sell 30 million copies like many a 1st person shooter they can brag a little. If they wanted to, they could do that tomorrow. Instead, the rehash and redo and remake the same mistakes over and over. They remake the physics over and over. They have all the market research they ever need right here, in threads that ask for the same fixes over and over and over.
It's not your fault PD chooses not to pay attention. It's not your fault PD counts on you and your friends working around things so PD doesn't have to fix them, because they know we'll find ways to do what PD should do so they don't have to. But that's not the way it should be. PD is placing the burden on it's loyal fans to do the work they should be doing, and then using that time to make nigh worthless add ons to attempt to garner attention for new fans.
In doing this, they do themselves a great disservice. They harm themselves by doing things this way. These new fans come here with bright lights in there eyes, and should they stay longer than 5 days, find themselves faced with mountains of workarounds to do the simplest of things. They are told by countless vets "that's just how it is", and that bright light quickly fades. PD's lure, their attempt to draw and keep that mew loyal follower is now a failure.
What would have become a loyal supporter like yourself now becomes a disillusioned person, angry and frustrated. He makes a post about his frustrations, he makes a post about what they think needs to be fixed, and then is jumped on by the "been there, done that, read this, that's a dead horse, oh god, not that again" band wagon... And after a brief flash of brightness, they flash across the sky like a shooting star and plummet to the earth, never to be heard from again.
Awhile back you mentioned this is where ideas and thoughts about GT come to die. The reason is that after the initial item that pulled that person in, PD doesn't do anything to give them hope or reason to live. We as a community compound this with crashing down on them and "explaining" how it is.
From PD, it's grand visions, which quickly turn to echoes of Doug Henning..."It's an illusion..."
I have seen the vision. If this is truly it, someone seriously needs to visit the eye doctor.
I cannot in good conscience defend the actions of a company that is so blatantly ignorant and apathetic to those that love their game the most. It goes against every fiber of my being to support such apathy to those that give so much of their time and thought and energy to this forum.
I cannot support a company that deliberately chooses to turn away from those that hold it most dearly, and I cannot continue to support this notion it's up to us to make it happen. It's up to us to make it so. I can understand give and take. I can understand workarounds to a point.
I cannot understand apathy to the magnitude I am seeing here. In all honesty, PD has placed me in a position of shame.
I am placed in the position of explaining away their failure to hear or act. I am shamed into making workarounds to make up for the company's short sightedness and lack of understanding. I am shamed into working and doing more than any sane gamer should have just to play the game I love simply because PD refuses to take you, me and 1,000 other people posting here regularly seriously.
Mostly I am shamed because many of the fixes we seek are not complex. They require no more effort than any of the "features" PD is creating. The time and money being made by advertising in the game by PD from billboards and other devices is sufficient to make such changes possible.
If such changes were made, GT6 could then expand upon that excellence. Instead, it will merely be an overgrown extension of it. All of the addition eye candy will dazzle and sparkle for a time. But there will again come a day like today, where again the real PD emerges, where all of the holes and pitfalls and lack of care are plainly seen for what they are.
You can choose to stay positive, you can choose to allow PD to continue this SOP and have them continue to force you to do their grunt work so they can indulge themselves in fluff and apps and photo streams and money laundering.
Or you can choose to see what is plain. You can see that though your cause is just, though your heart be in the right place, the fight is not one of necessity to begin with.
You can see with your own eyes that PD can take away the need for this fight tomorrow if they wished. They could simply act upon the ideas, thoughts and fixes this community has held before their eyes for over a year now. They could stop developing GT6 for a few weeks and truly make an effort to make GT5 what it SHOULD be, and should have been a year ago but isn't...
It isn't what it should be simply because they took you and and your dedication and your positive attitude and your willingness to work around PD's failures for granted. In fact, they took the same from all of us. They took advantage of the good nature of one of the most awesome and dedicated fan bases in the history of gaming to indulge themselves in trivial pursuits. There is nothing in that where credit, honor or loyalty are deserved.
PD had mine. But because of these things, because they have taken all of you for granted, because they have allowed your good nature and you sacrifice and your time and your ability and your workarounds and used them as an excuse to do pointless things they have lost it.
I cannot ask you to give up what you love, nor would I. And truth be told, I do still love this game. But I will not have that love and loyalty toyed with, or urinated on for over a year by a company who feigns such humbleness and desire to be so much more.
I'm better than that, and like it or not, I am smarter than that.
Beyond this lies another concept. "Collectively we are more intelligent than we are individually."
In that sense, as 'keys has said, we are smarter than PD. Not just me. Not just you. Not just 'keys, or MastrGT, exXbox, OzDaddy, nuTTz, DirtyHarry44, dmcallis, jaejsteale, MATTCLK, tguns, gojet64, PKRCipriani, Crow, Numb, Dr. No, Ehollonde, MTA, TC, Gar, Lord_B, clacksman, Forgetful, SE427, any name with "tuna" in it or any other one of us. Not individually...
But together, all working and thinking and sorting things out...
All playing the game, creating workarounds, identifying problem areas...
Identifying things that could use some help or some love...
In that way... Yes.
We are smarter than PD. Very much more so.
As I have said before I will say again. PD makes many of it's own messes, and it's SOP is to tick off as few people as possible. It is not to make changes to the game that we would like to see. To those at PD, if they were to change such things it would be like admitting they didn't do something right. It would require some actual humility in admitting they are indeed human after all. It would require that they accept that they really don't have all the answers.
That's something few people in this world ever come to accept, whether professionally or personally. People don't like admitting they were wrong, they have an inherent sense of correctness in everything they do. One of the first steps to truly growing up and maturing as an adult is the ability to admit error, to actually accept the fact you don't know everything and you can be wrong.
The second step to growing up is realizing it's not the end of the world when you realize you are, or could be wrong. To pick yourself up and overcome the fear of being wrong and trying again. To apologize if necessary, to put something right, to admit the error and correct it. You and I and everyone here can notice PD does try to correct many things, yet I find it odd mostly they are things none of us have pointed out or made a big fuss about. When they do change something we've addressed they have done so in an unexpected way that doesn't really address what we brought up, or does it in some manner that makes it appear they had a solution all along, but hadn't quite perfected it yet. I believe this is why every time they fix something they break something else... Because they don't just simply address the problem, they instead make some "book smart" attempt to make the situation different so the problem doesn't appear as it did before.
In this sense, PD needs to grow up. They need to understand we will not think less of them for making a mistake. They really need to get that. I don't think they do. They don't understand we will instead think more of them, especially if they actually fix it right or if they simply say "yeah, we see where you are coming from, let's try this". The only time we will ever think less of them is when they don't fix it, or when they pretend it doesn't exist, or when they instead abuse the dedication of the community to overcome there errors and ignore them completely.
By covering for PD, as a community we are indirectly saying "it's OK if it's screwed up, we'll take care of it for you..." That is a sentiment to be admired, but it is a two edged sword. It also sends PD the message that they don't have to fix it, that because we're willing "to look at the bright side" they can look somewhere else. It gives PD an excuse NOT to address our concerns, because we're smart enough to workaround them, and are willing to put our time and energy into doing so.
Until such time comes as the community is unwilling to give PD a pass for the things that take up our time, waste our ability to enjoy the game, to race in ways we can relate to and regulate lobby, lounge and league racing without resorting to extreme limits or workarounds nothing will change. Until such time as the community is willing to call a spade a spade, and act in a manner that sends PD the clear message that they are doing this community a disservice, PD will not fix or change anything.
This has been over a year now for some of these items, some since Day 1 launch... In that time we have had many items put into updates that required just as many, if not more man hours and time than what would have been needed to fix these errors and additions and allow this game to flourish beyond anyone's expectations.
Instead, here we are all this time later having the same back and forth discussions over the same problems over the same changes we have all wanted for so long, and again we have the same "we have what we have", "enjoy it", "work around it", until PD does this that or something else"...
There is no longer any doubt where the problem lies, nor any doubt as to it's cause.
There is no longer any doubt where the problem truly lies, nor any doubt as to what should have been done hasn't been done.
If it had, we would all be singing PD's praise, and remarks like "they are smarter" would actually be true to a point.
I still hold an amount of respect for PD, and still believe they car capable of great things. But I no longer believe they care to achieve them as much as they say. I believe they feel so long as you blindly accept they know best, and allow them complete control of your experience you will love their product.
Me, I think for myself. I blindly follow no one.
I refuse to be a cow with a wallet.
If you wish to be, all the best.
But imagine a world where PD actually implemented some of those basic changes we've asked for for so long. Imagine how many of us would be paying the snot out of GT5 still, and not buying the other console, or buying other games, or bemoaning things that are still broken, or having discussions like these again and again and again.
Go ahead, you can admit it.
It would be quite nice, wouldn't it..?
Tell me you wouldn't feel so much better about the game, about the company, about the community, about the racing. Tell me your experience wouldn't be 10 times to the better than it is now with all the issues and workarounds and pain in the buttockal region stuff gone.
If that were so, I raise the glass with you and stand right beside you in the loyalty and pride you have in PD. And I'd be lying if I said anything other than I wish that day was yesterday. I want nothing more to be able to do just that. To say I am saddened that it is PD itself that prevents me from doing so is a great sorrow is among the largest of understatements.
Together we are more intelligent than we are individually.
And to quote "RED", "there's nothing a small, but dedicated group of individuals can accomplish..."
(...Great movie BTW, if you've never seen it. I gave it 3 thumbs up. An 11 out of 10. How it snuck under the radar like it did amazes me, as did PUSH and The Losers. Watch them every time they come on. So much under the surface in all three...)
Unless they plan on releasing GT6 next week, I will not be content with the time, money, support and effort I've given PD until GT5 is made to be what it should be.
If PD wants my pre order of GT6, they will make it that way.
If PD wants my continued support of DLC, they will make an effort to make it that way.
If not, when GT6 "the final final yes this really is the last edition" comes out in the bargain bin for $20 bucks, then I'll buy it.
Whether PD gets $100 or more from me, or a cut of a measly $20 is entirely up to them.
If you're curios as to whether this is really an issue, or whether I'm alone in this sentiment, I'd encourage you to visit some other racing games forums and take a look at how many "I used to play GT" people are there now. People that never posted here, or did post quite a bit but are fed up. There are many more than you would think.
I have fought the good fight to the last of my strength, but I cannot continue to fight a developer with the level of apathy PD has shown.
The community needs to stop making excuses for Mssr Kaz and realize they are facilitating PD continuing to leave the game as is.
It is up to us to let PD know this is not acceptable, that our time and our efforts deserve the same respect that PD wants as the games creator, that our time and effort is no less important than those that have a company name associated with it.
It's time we stop excusing PD from abdicating it's responsibility to the community that has defended and supported GT5 all this time.
As a group, PD needs to know that the apathy shown towards the changes we have asked for over a year and a half is no longer excusable, not when so many other things that required so many man hours and so much development time was wasted on were released.
If you are content with crumbs from the perceived master's table, enjoy them. Savor them, love them.
I want to sit at the table and actually eat, not crawl around looking for table scraps in every update to perpetuate excuses.
My loyalty doesn't come cheap.
09-27-2012 08:28 AM - edited 09-27-2012 08:42 AM
wow. so much to reply to, but it's all basically one message.
I've been on both sides... feeling like we need to just trust their "vision" because a lot of things I did not like about how GT5 is set up later made sense to me when I realized how they intended it to impact your gaming experience. A lot of what seems off-base about PD's design of things and decision making later fits very nicely.
For instance, including Standard cars. I was upset initially that all the cars didn't look prestine and delicious. I later realized that it made MORE sense to give us more of less than it did for them to give us less of more. The standards d rive good, and each probably cost PD very little to port over to GT5 and polish up a little. There is no trade-off of them including fewer premiums just because they included the standards. I was wrong about that. There are many things that PD has done which are beneficial and we don't necessarily understand, but ARE "for the greater good".
But where that newly realized sentiment dies is when it becomes obvious that they do not wish to improve things that, over 2 years, have NOT made me or anyone else have that Eureka moment of "ok NOW I see why they did it that way!" There are things that must be left broken intentionally or that they simply cannot see.
They are not just things that would be "nice to haves" but are things that are "critical to haves" or "embarrassing to try and defend". Neither this nor Dan's rant is "some kid whining about what he wants and someoen hasn't given him". THey are things that if fixed, would not financially benefit any of US, but PD. Their game would have a much better reputation and then GT6 would be greated with fanfare like the racing game world has never seen. Instead we'll probably say to ourselves, "well, here we go again." Or will we? (go again that is)
Then there are things that seem like they are intentional slights against people who may be loyal, but feel free to express their opinions very strongly, like Dan here...
WHO was it who was probably the most vocal about wanting a "wall of wheels" and the ability to afix premium wheels onto our standard cars? DAN.
Who was it who pioneered the specs for an american muscle series and put forth the most effort of anyone I know into testing cars? DAN. (ANY cars of anyone in GT at any forum. I guarentee you Dan has done more seat time than you figuring stuff out and scratching his head. that is not to discredit anything anyone else may have done. But Dan takes the cake. More seat time, more reasoning applied, and more dediciation tofiguring things out than anyone out there.)
Who posted the most about their issues while testing and let the community know what the challenges were? DAN.
So probably about 8 months after the FOGY series died, not to Dan's discredit, but at the fault of the guy who first tried to organize it who Dan volunteered to help. After that much time we finally get the ability to put premium wheels on our standard cars. well some fo them. Some cars you can do this. Some cars you can do that. Again, Kaz and PD DO have some better wisdom in there somewhere, and they appropriately have some wheels that can only be afixed to race cars and some wheels that can only be afixed to relatively small cars. That makes some sense, and while some kids out there would just whine and complain. I get it.
But what I don't get, and what seems like the intentional, personal slight is that when they did this the one wheel choice they did NOT allow you to afix to an AMERICAN MUSCLE car (standard) is the most relevant one of all. The American Torq Thrust (ATT). Why? If there is so much wisdom being applied about some of the wheel choices, why not this?
Okay, I thought it was an oversight. We joked about how it might be a slap in the face to Dan. But we WERE just joking. Now, it's either that, or they are so clueless that it doesn't matter whether it was intentional. Because in my opinion, IGNORANCE IS INTENTIONAL. You can choose not to be. As Dan said above, you can choose to admit your mistakes or choose not to.
They choose "ta NOT to". Rather than to "git-r-done".
Either they do not read one word of this or any other forum, because this issue is impossible to miss, or they purposely have chosen not to fix it. When they made the decision to code the wheels to be allowed for each type of car, they ahd to make a CHOICE to NOT include the ATT's for american muslce.
It would seem they know the word "NOT" pretty well.
But then in other instances they don't know what the word "NOT" means. They pride themselvs as perfectionists, and at times it shows. But how could a perfectionist not want the wording in their menus to be correct? To me it's obvious that the ymissed this mistake. but if they had the right people involved it could be fixed easily.
They very obviously use a native English speaker to write the descriptions for the cars and many of the other items in GT. It doesn't follow the same sort of literary cadence that statements originating in Japanese and then translated to English would have. Why not have that person go through and make sure all the menus say the right things?
I'm still of a "wait and see" approach, but I can see why some people would want to throw in the towel, or at least express that they are very near that point.
I feel like there's a better, bigger update coming soon, but that's just a feeling. I hope there is one, and it is much better than the previous one, and that it addresses some of the major concerns that people have.
until then, I have friends in GT5 and that is the reason I play it. I enjoy their company. We can all still continue to enjoy each other despite the game, but it would truly be preferable that we weren't constantly frustrated by the game at almost every turn. ( no pun intended)
09-27-2012 09:17 AM
Some of us contend that they are not listening to our wishes, needs and gripes.
They contend that many of the updates since release are based on them.
I believe that there is lots of room for better communication, so that we don't have this gulf between our perceptions.
From my own participation, I have seen the obvious responses to some of the complaints, concerns and observations that I have forwarded to the GT team. There were direct 1:1 responses to some of them, some of them were immediate. However, there are some serious concerns that still have no obvious fixes and, without some sort of response from them, its difficult to tell just what they are thinking about them.
I am not making excuses or trying to explain things for them, but I feel some of the blame for this gulf has to be shared by them and us. We can be pretty harsh, sometimes, and our frustrations boil up frequently when some obvious problems don't get resolved to our satisfaction. After a brief discussion about this problem yesterday, I know that they are concerned about this situation, too, and I plan on continuing to bridge this gap in as many ways as I am allowed. But things change slower than you all wish, so the lack of response or the lack of explanation makes it difficult to understand what is going on.
However, I don't think this is the time to give up. Don't give up playing and don't give up wanting more and don't give up hope.
09-27-2012 09:20 AM
I understand your views Dan and have some background to your frustrations. I agree, in part, but only to a point. The following is just my opinion and not necessarily directed at you.
As to the community reaction, one person’s apathy is another person’s low priority. It all comes down to perspective and choices. I’ve invested enough in this game and community to know that my choice is valid. I’m not being apathetic. I’m not giving anyone a free pass. I’m just choosing not to be indignant. I’m choosing not to feel insulted by any perceived slight. I’m choosing not to let that last straw settle on the camel’s back.
I’m not going to close up the shop, or be made to feel like I should, just because others are making different choices.
I bought this $60 (give or take) video game nearly two years and have got far more from it than I ever thought I would. It’s a really good video game but that’s what it is. I’m choosing to make the most of it. Sure there are things that I would like to see changed, but I’m not going to let it ruin my fun.
Many people and groups have also made choices. They have chosen to take this great game and make something more of it, to suit their needs. They have chosen to ignore or belittle some parts of the game while choosing to invest their time and effort in other parts. The size of that group or the perceived importance of that group does not make their demands any more valid than the person who just wants to have a bit of fun. No group has ownership of this game. You choose to buy it and make of it what you will. I can’t see anything on the game case or in the forum fine print that obligates PD to change the game for the benefit of any one person or group. PD has chosen to do or not do certain things. I wasn’t in those meetings and development sessions so I couldn’t tell you why or why not.
If anyone chooses to invest their time and effort and happiness in this game, remember it was your choice and with any choice comes risks. Sometimes there will be disappointments. Sometimes you don’t get what you want. If you don’t, then state your case, but be prepared that there might be other cases, other choices, even ones you might not understand.
For all I know there is a very outspoken and demanding community in Outer Mongolia who just love the new ghosting feature. I don’t understand why, but they do. No offence intended to Outer Mongolians.
For every person who has invested in this game and comes on the forum to complain and voice their opinion, there are at least as many that are happy to enjoy the game as it is. They are not fools. It’s just perspective, priority and choices.
09-27-2012 10:15 AM
until then, I have friends in GT5 and that is the reason I play it. I enjoy their company. We can all still continue to enjoy each other despite the game, but it would truly be preferable that we weren't constantly frustrated by the game at almost every turn. ( no pun intended)
The value I have got out of this game from that aspect alone has carried me past any dissapointments and will do more to maintain my "loyalty" than the other stuff will make me disloyal.
09-27-2012 10:23 AM
I have to wonder.
We put great value on our wants and wishes.
The reaction to adding something this particular community didnt want or ask for emphasizes how important we feel we are.
But in the grand scheme, this forums active member size, and activity level is miniscule.
While I cant say firsthand, I do imagine the Japan GT forum being a much more robust community.
And that planetary place, they are monstrously active compared to here.
Without knowing what the trend is on larger GT communities it is impossible to say that PD isnt taking care of its users.
Our percieved place of importance in the global GT community far outwieghs the reality.
Heck for all we know there could be 200 Taiwanese school children all playing GT5 on a rainy recess, having the time of thier lives with the new collisions off feature.
We should not let our narrow view of the picture prevent us from seeing the whole landscape.
09-27-2012 10:26 AM - edited 09-27-2012 10:34 AM
But it doesn't change the facts, it doesn't change we've been sacrificed to the gods of useless apps and the photo stream.
Ahhh, I think the photo stream capability is cool!
In all seriousness though, I keep in mind that Sony pretty much forced PD's hand in releasing GT5. As I understand it, PD still wasn't where they wanted to be in terms of completion when they had to release the game. So at this point I consider GT5 as a "Prologue 2", if you will, and hope that GT6 is THE game that has all the bugs worked out and the features the masses have been requesting.
GT5 is endless fun for me, and I continue to hold out hope that GT6 will be even better and also hope that PD is listening to us out here and at least takes our ideas into consideration.
09-27-2012 10:29 AM
09-27-2012 11:05 AM
I believe proper perspective of the relationship between this forum and the rest around the world is what has kept us from coming to this "near throwing in the towel" moment a long time ago.
of course we have no reason to believe we know better than anyone else, or that our preferences should be THE WORD on what preference should be.
BUT it has come to the point where I believe Dan is right -- that we've gone through enough workarounds, troubleshooting, relearning and relearning how to tune over and over again and examining "well what did they fix or break this time" to know what is what.
it's not just here, but when we say "we" this forum is the immediate example, but we mean "those who are dedicated and trying the hardest" which is across many forums and locations in the world. the english speaking ones, the only ones I know personally, all have the same air of "gosh I'm about to give up on this game" attituded. We've pushed it back and back and back, but it's looming ever closer.
I'm glad they are listening. I just hope they also "get it". Only time will tell.