Hekseville Citizen
Registered: 09/03/2011
317 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

For "event races" we have a system in place to handle contact. We do not ask drivers to give back places as this can make things worse. In non event races, the host takes care of things as they see fit. A simple Q & A after a race fills in the blanks. And by using GTP OLR you should understand this.

Message 11 of 155 (274 Views)
Uncharted Territory
Registered: 09/03/2012
1712 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

There's nothing particularly difficult about the 'honor system'. If a player is informed, upon entry to a clearly marked rules rom, what the rules are, as long as the ENTIRE ROOM polices itself, honor is of little consequence. Basically, you are asking everyone that WANTS to race clean to be a steward. In my GTP rooms, I eschew the private communication of disputes, but always ask for confiormation of an infraction, or for several drivers to point out the same disruptive player, and he is gone.


It works incredibly well, and I often have full grids, racing utterly without rules infractions in an entirely open, public room.


Involving the ENTIRE room in policing itself is the answer.


But the onus on a host to make sure that each and every new driver, no matter the nationality, gets the rules spelled out for them in plain, simple language is a burden to say the least. A standardized 'definition' of clean racing would make a host's task so much simpler. Personally, I wouldn't mind the odd recce lap in a strange car or track before the race, rather than repeating over and over the same 3 or 4 simple, basic rules of racing that ensure a clean race. You spell them out for one driver, another joins the room, back to typing again!. This is utter BS!


Just sayin'....

Message 12 of 155 (258 Views)
Uncharted Territory
Registered: 09/03/2012
1712 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

[ Edited ]
Sep 4, 2012

THE_KART96 wrote:

For "event races" we have a system in place to handle contact. We do not ask drivers to give back places as this can make things worse. In non event races, the host takes care of things as they see fit. A simple Q & A after a race fills in the blanks. And by using GTP OLR you should understand this.

Actually, GTP OLR requires the infractor to return position. If you have a system where any infractor can keep the place, and you adjudicate afterwards (how the hell do you manage that without witnesses?), you are NOT racing acording to the GTP OLR. Plus it must take forever to sort out.


Should the infractor NOT return position, he needs to explain why at the end of the race, with the only proviso's being, being hit INTO the car in front or the car in front losing it (hitting the wall, spinning, going off in the traps and re-entering the track so as to force contact).


It's not really rocket science. But it might be, for all the common understanding of it...


BTW, if drivers are informed that returning position takes place at the earliest opportunity they can do it witjhout impeding others (as per OLR), returning position correctly does NOT make things worse... But this DOES further illustrate how a brief printed set of 'clean  racing' instructions would avoid this kind of confusion. The more answers I get to this thread, with the more myriad descriptions of how 'clean' is defined and adjudiacated, the more I DO think we need a common set of rules. If we can't even agree on this thread what they are, how is anyone expected to know if PD don't publish them?

Message 13 of 155 (257 Views)
I Only Post Everything
Registered: 12/10/2010
1077 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012
i dont think gt5 is about racing, just driving.
anyway i watch a lot of motorsports, and if anyone who dosent, please do because thats the best way to learn whats right and whats wrong.

people often get "competitive racing" and " clean racing" mixed up.

Message 14 of 155 (250 Views)
Uncharted Territory
Registered: 01/13/2012
1751 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

Yes "self discipline" no more needs to be said! Smiley Tongue

Message 15 of 155 (250 Views)
Uncharted Territory
Registered: 02/22/2011
1953 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

What you are asking is for PD to set up an arbitrary set of rules for "clean racing".


Not to be critical or mean or knock PD in any way, but simply to illustrate a point...:


PD can't get penalties to work right. They can't get the grammar right in the simple use of the word "NOT" when a driver helper is turned off. The definitions for parts and how they work on the car in the tuning sections is often confusing, and in some cases backwards of what really happens.


I say this to show the simple fact the fine people at PD are just as human as the rest of us.


Their interpretation of "clean" would be different from yours or mine or anyone else's.


I recently had a debate with SWERV and EX about a recent NASCAR event. All three of us are what I would consider "clean" racers. The two of them are as honorable as you're going to get when it comes to solid, honest, hard to beat competitors who are also as clean and as fair as you're going to get when it comes to having automotive dance partners on the track.


Yet all three of us saw the incident differently.


All three of us had varying opinions on just what was acceptable and what wasn't.


We all had varying definitions of "clean"...


What I do know for sure though is no matter what our personal interpretations of "clean", I don't have to worry when racing them.


I know EX will hold his line and make you work for the pass. I know SWERV will race for all he's worth, but won't put put himself in a position to wreck you. I know I can race anyone side by side and will do everything humanly possible to allow the other car room, but will hold my line if in front and will expect the other car to respect the position, just as if they are in front I'll back off and give them the line when needed.


I know there may be a little contact. As long as it's not dangerous or potentially wrecking another car, I let it slide. Incidental contact and accidents happen. What makes these two different from the average lobby troglodyte is how they react to any incidents when they happen. They will do the honorable thing. They will take responsibility. They will apologize. I know that they have already done all they could to avoid the incident in the first place. I know that they understand the fundamental principle of RESPECT for another driver.


Though I used those two above in the example, there are MANY MANY MANY drivers like this out there. I have raced with them, and it has been my honor to share the track and lose gracefully to them. Or sometimes steal a win or a decent finish, or sometimes just lose, with a little less of the graceful part as I just happen to be human too...


All of them race "clean" as they know it, and they all race with respect for the other drivers on the track.


That's enough for me.


The fact is we don't NEED a rulebook to tell us how to do that.


The simple truth is that we respect each other on the track, and race each other the way we want to be raced.


That doesn't mean there will never be an incident.

That doesn't mean I won't ever have to apologize, or stop and wait for someone because I got into a draft and couldn't stop in time.

It means I do my best to ensure I don't wreck another driver's race.

It means EX does his best to not wreck another's race.

It means SWERV does his best to not wreck another person's race.


As stated above multiple times...


It's taking responsibility for your driving, and disciplining yourself to not do the stupid thing to someone else.


Your job as a driver has two parts when on the track.


#1..: Drive well and win if you can

#2..: Drive well and don't do anything that will prevent anyone else on the track from completing #1.


So long as everyone follows that simple, basic driving philosophy, what you speak of need never be written.



Just as an aside to this... And not to be rude, nor to embarrass or upset you any way...


But if you would, could you do all of us favor please...?


Worry about your own driving and stop worrying about telling us what we all should be driving like.


If you're having that much difficulty with other drivers, simply put...: You're driving in the wrong place.


See your other post about "clean driving". Your answer to this problem is there.


While you have valid points about some things and are not asking for things any one of us hasn't already asked for...


You need to realize that you are asking others to do for you what you need to learn to do for yourself.


It is not PD's job, nor our job to make the GT5 world safe and squeaky clean for you to be able to exist in.


It's your job. So I have a personal challenge for you...


Go grab your Captain Kirk uniform and an American Football (...tip of the cap to the captain for that one BTW, I LOL'd heavily...)


Embark on a 5 week mission to explore strange new rooms...

To seek out and find strange new friends...

And to boldly race where you have never raced before.


Just don't do the lady singing part at the end. I need my coffee cups in one piece...


Discover the people that exist in this strange world of GT5 that actually do all these things you want to see.

Discover that they do them because it's simply the right way to race.

Discover that that don't need to be told how to do what they already do.

Discover you're asking PD to waste valuable time defining what is already defined.


I think they'd appreciate that far more than critical posts that try and explain to them what they have known to be true for years now.


And I think you'll find the time spent cultivating positive race experiences and people to race with something you can appreciate.


I started with Me, Myself and Larry.


Now I can't even remember all the racers I've run with. Some good, some not. But by taking the time and getting involved I do know who I can count on for some fun. Who I can count on to race seriously when I can, and who I just like to hang out in a lounge with whether I race or not.


And I know in all of those instances, a rule book would make no difference to the experience in any way, shape or form.


I wish you the best on your journey, and if I may be of help, I shall do what I can.

Message 16 of 155 (240 Views)
Keyblade Wielder
Registered: 11/24/2010
8815 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

Destinkeys wrote:


How much overlap is sufficient to give the inside driver the rights to the apex, whether the overlap needs to exist at the start of the braking zone or whether it needs to be there at the turn-in point, etc.. 

as dan said, that's where I draw the line because this is a virtual driving experience where no one can physically get hurt.  (unless shrapnel from a suddenly smashed TV happens to ricochet in the wrong trajectory).  If you try to pass IN the turn without enough room for me to move over a little, then I'm not letting you through.  Period.  One may be light speed faster than me, but they'll have to wait for the next opportunity.


There are exceptions to the rule, but that's mine.


My mic wasn't working the whole time when racing with Oz's group on Sunday, but one individual poked "their" head in where it didn't belong and it cost them the race.  I tried to say, but don't think anyone heard.... "Just because you CAN fit doesn't mean you SHOULD fit!"


I take the stance that a clean driver who truly cares about winning only in the most honorable way possible, will not time trial with people next to them.  If they know the line and they know that I probably know the line, then they should not attempt to intersect the optimal line right at the apex or even slightly beforehand.  Because at that point I'm still ahead and closing down that gap you THINK you have.


And that's not even blocking.  Most people allow one blocking move but I don't really even use them.  I may take a tighter line to avoid giving you an "in", but I don't jerk in front of you to make you brake and lose momentum when it's clear you've earned the pass by exiting the corner better than I did.


But racing with someone is really the only way you will know what to expect from race to race.


I understand what you're trying to do here and your effort should be applauded.  I agree with some of the others, however, that it would be kind of scary, for lack of a better word, to let PD decide what is clean and what's not.  Some of their penalty lines are already way off.


Back to your snipped post quoted above...  If PD were capable of being able to decide where all the braking points really should be for any car with any mods, on any track, then the AI would already be much better than it actually is.  They'd be able to program them to take turns like we do, but they can't.


Another problem is that people brake at different points.  If I am running with the Tunas, I get spoiled by five or six people in close formatian virtually all braking at the exact same moment, coming within paper width of each other, and rarely resulting in more than a little bump.  We snake around tracks like a school of fish, and like I said, contact is pretty rare and minor.  If I forget I'm not racing with them in another room, then someone more nervous about the track's braking points will brake when you really don't expect it.  Then, BAM!


That person, if it's a stranger, might think they just got wrecked intentionally.  The game might too, if it were programmed with finite limits to rules.


Braking points, turn-in, and overall line depend on how many cars are in front of, beside and behind you.  A skilled racer has to adjust to these scenarios, which themselves are changing every fraction of a second.


I don't want that much of GT5's computing power to be spent on trying to figure out who's doing what, when it could be spent on something more important.


Not knocking your idea, and I hear your frustration about open lobbies, but have major reservations about how it could be implemented in a way that would make most of us still like the game.


Welcome to the forum.  Sounds like you're passionate about the game and a valuable member of the community.

aka Ex_Stream_Tuna -FR's & Racing done here. ExXboxfan = Netflix only
GT Saturdays Event Thread

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Message 17 of 155 (233 Views)
Fender Bender
Registered: 05/11/2006
3589 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 4, 2012

MastrGT wrote:

Anyone counting on getting clean racing while in open lobbies is deluding themselves.


There are some basic ways to find them, however:


1) run the event yourself and be prepared to deal with the crashers and bangers (see my host link)

2) build up your friend list with players that you trust and race them

3) join good racing leagues


Leagues don't need to be large. If they are active, 15-20 active drivers can give you more racing than you can possibly participate in.

MastrGT's reply here pretty much sums it up.  If you want to race with people who race clean all the time, you need to build up your friends list with people you know you can race with that race clean.  Clean racing in racing games stems from the standards and rules set forth from real life racing leagues and events.  Even if you don't know what they all are, there are 'common sense' things everyone should know no matter how old you are of what racing clean should be.


But stick to MastrGT's simple 3 items list here, that's pretty much the only way to guarantee you race in rooms with other people who will race clean.

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Message 18 of 155 (226 Views)
Uncharted Territory
Registered: 09/03/2012
1712 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 5, 2012

For starters, I will have nothing further to do with Dan's opinions, posts or thoughts. As he cannot himself couch them in anything even remotely resembling politeness, I will do what has to be done and ignore them totally.


The thing about a standardized set of rules is, I understand COMPLETELY that they may be different to what I am used to. They may differ from what any of YOU are used to. But the whole POINT of rules is that they are COMMON. In other words, when you go out on the field with an American football, or a Soccer ball, there are RULES. Now, you may have grown up in the street fudging, adjusting, and modifying those rules to better suit you and your buddies.


But stick several thousand players in the same stadium, and it is a recipe for disaster to try and get a game going on without agreeing on a COMMON set of rules.


This is what GT5 and PD completely ignore. There exists, at any time of the day or night, the opportunity to go into a room that says 'clean' and find utterly different degrees of it. So PD make you jump through hoops and hurdles trying to find a common set of players. Let's get back to that stadium of football players. How long do you think it would take to find 11 players that ALL followed the exact set of rules? But imagine that, as you entered the stadium, each one of you is given a sheet of paper with the rules written on them.


You could now play with the 11 closest players! Immediately.


I don't want PD to adopt MY set of rules... I want PD to ratify ANY set of rules.


Then, should you still wish to race GTP, or WRS, whatever, there is no impediment. But if you want a quick race with the 15 closest racers, there is no endless argument about what clean IS... You all simply say 'GT5 Clean' and instantly understand, no matter where they are from or what language they speak, the same common set of rules.


Look... I already run GTP clean public rooms. I already KNOW every trick in the book for hosting clean racing. I have a full Friend's list and dozens of people waiting to get on. Please don't insult me by suggesting I haven't already considered these possibilities. But, even after all this, I recognize that there is MUCH the game could do to take the burden off the host. After all, I want to race as much as the rest of you! But having to spend all of my pre-race free run eyeballing the noobs, to try and kick BEFORE a race starts (and many noobs know to not start ruining the room until the race starts!), and spending endless time post race arguing minutiae of overlap or diving (let alone the basics of returning position), engendering the eternal hate of those unwilling to race clean to the rules, and unwilling to accept the consequences for not, when the GAME could easily do much of that for me, yes! I DO feel someone else (the maker of the game itself) should do some of this IF IT CAN BE DONE.


After all, there are already filters for SRF and other aids. Filters for penalties. Filters for damage. Filters for tire wear and fuel use. Filters for how much drafting strength you want.


Someone, at some time, must have asked for this. And, if here, I have a nasty feeling someone (naming no names!) probably said they don't NEED it... you can already do it by getting all the drivers to agree! And that you are stating your opinion as a fact!

Message 19 of 155 (208 Views)
I Only Post Everything
Registered: 03/13/2005
1044 posts

Re: Should PD publish a standardized 'Clean Racing' definition?

Sep 5, 2012

I think I have to agree with Destinkeys. I've had the pleasure of racing in is rooms in the past, and he puts a ton of effort into making the racing as clean and fair as possible. Treating him like he's never been online before is not fair to him or the work he's done to make the whole of GT5 online expereince more racer friendly. It would be great if GT outlined what is acceptable and what isn't outside of the penalties because they are inconsistent and do not cover everything. It really doesn't make sense that a host has to concentrate 100% on monitoring drivers, or telling what is or isn't allowed, instead of racing. 


PD could add something very simple to the in-game manual that would pretty much cover all situations. Something like:

  • The track boundary is defined by the lines on either side of the track, gaining time by running off track is prohibited
  • Intentional contact with other drivers or objects is prohibited
  • Any contact with another driver that impedes their progress is prohibited
  • Dangerous driving, such as driving in reverse is prohibited

It would be even better tif egregious infractions like driving in reverse, or intentionally cutting corners, or failing to brake for corners would kick a driver out of the race or force them to stay in the pits until the race ends.


It just doesn't seem fair that we have to do everything in our power to get away from PDs system in order to find good racing. Shoudn't the game be inviting? Sure, a motorsports enthusiast may know what's fair, but what about someone who's never watched a race before? GT's single player mode certainly doesn't teach what clean racing is. It wouldn't take PD very long at all to come up with some guidelines. They could copy/paste the Driving Etiquette thread and be done with it. At least then everyone would know what should be expected of them.



It's also pretty crazy that there are a million reasons posted here of why PD couldn't/shouldn't do something to make the online experience more enjoyable for a lot of people. We should be embracing ideas that could improve the online experience, not shunning them.


Message 20 of 155 (198 Views)