09-27-2012 07:42 PM - edited 09-27-2012 07:47 PM
I am disappointed in you. You have made some hurtful and inaccurate statements about me in your latest post that were out of line and not in line with your usual respectful manner.
You apparently don't know me nearly as well as you think you do, and I feel that you need to look carefully at your words.
Once you do, I feel that you owe me a HUGE apology.
Here are a few statements that you made that are wrong IMO, and well out of bounds. As usual, you carefully worded your post to make it seem like you may or may not have been speaking directly to me, but th implications are VERY clear to me. You are the master of not quite saying things directly , but getting your point across very well anyway.
It's not just "30 or so" of us. It's hundreds on other forums. It's hundreds on competitor's games forums. It's a constant steady stream of people that are leaving the world of GT and going elsewhere.
I'm not "just sayin'" either.
I'm not focusing on being personal, making you look foolish, attempting to appear superior or accosting you because you dared to think instead of point a finger and mindlessly quote the status quo.
I don't blindly accept "PD knows all".
But I'll take the army of minds and ideas over the single man any day of the week.
I'm not easily amused. I'm not easily won over with eye candy.
Mock me all you want. If you think your comments will make this game or this forum better, make more.
Heck, I'll make them with you if it gets the job done. But it doesn't...
Sit and be smug and joke if you like. Pretend that 8 million copies is really something. It isn't.
I'm not content to play the fool and pretend everything is OK fine.
I'm not interested in people who have nothing to contribute but insult.
And face it. You and I both know PD is better than this.
If you fully realized anything, you'd understand your precious GT is in trouble.
If it weren't for the online relationships, which is all many seem to care about now, where would GT5 be...?
09-29-2012 03:33 AM - last edited on 10-01-2012 09:04 AM by Trawnza
I think Dan has articulated perfectly how I feel about PD, apart from, at this point, having a Mac (not a PC) makes moving to a better PC based sim a particularly difficult option for me!
You see, make fun of the '30 or so' of us who dare to post deserved criticism of the game, I believe we are the long term future of PD. Realistically, given PD's notorious slug-like pace at producing new games, how many of the casual 'gamers' are going to want to play this game 2-4 years down the pike? But those of us that are more interested in the SPORT of motor racing rather than the 'game' aspects of it will still be playing, buying DLC and pre-ordering the NEXT GT game long after the kids have graduated to whether else occupies their ADHD attentions.
Let me tell you something about how I play the game... It might explain a lot about where my priorities come from. I am A-Spec level 40, B-Spec level 10 or so! Once my chops at driving improved to an acceptable level, the thought of watching someone else drive my cars around seemed pointless (and a bad driver at that!). B-Spec.... utterly irrelevant, as far as I am concerned.
I have never done a cash 'glitch'. I have spent as little time 'grinding' as I possibly could. And what little I did, I now regret profoundly. At this point, I've got about 1000 or so cars, and my main problem is finding something I actually WANT to spend the 'money' on, not struggling to buy everything that comes up. It's rare to find anything in the OCD or UCD other than the odd Skyline, Miata or Kei car that duplicates 5 cars I already have! So, I now wish I hadn't 'Like the Wind'ed or Fiesta Italiano'd Sarthe so much! I might still have something worth buying.
I have never traded a car, I have received (unasked for) only a couple of cars. I have painted only a tiny handful. I have the full set of RM's, and all the DLC. I don't WANT every car in every color. I didn't buy GT5 to play Pokemon. I bought GT5 to RACE...
I have taken only a couple of pictures. When I want to take pictures of racecars, I would rather go to a track and take pictures of REAL cars. I have a friend who is a photographer for the Porsche Club of America, and a sponsored credited photographer for ALMS and Grand-Am. If I wanted to take pictures of cars, I'd be hanging with him. I bought GT5 to RACE.
I do not play A-Spec at all, now. The AI are so utterly unrealistic, it only makes racing A-Spec painful. I am seriously starting to give up on the Seasonals. A), I don't need the money, and b) the AI.... 'nuff said! I bought GT5 to RACE.
I race online only. And unfortunately, due to my crazy schedule, I have little time for organized Leagues. But still, I play GT5 to RACE.... nothing else whatsoever.
And, from this perspective, most of PD's decisions seem utterly baffling. I'm sorry, but no argument convinces me... when the ONLY thing you can do with GT5 is drive cars round RACETRACKS, it is hard to argue that the game is meant to be anything other than a RACING GAME! So PD's constant nerfing of racing aspects already in game (remember how hard it used to be to bang the AI around until PD nerfed it?) and adding of update features designed to make it even MORE unrealistic (all cars ghosted..? Please!), and the complete ignoring of the HUGE volume of racing related feature requests, I have to wonder...
Who are PD making this game for?
The Pokemon crowd? (gotta have them all!)... Mario Kart graduates that want to play the same game in more realistic cars? Frustrated race photographers that are too lazy to go out to a local track at the weekend with a point-and-shoot? Bubble-gum card collectors tired of baseball players?
Or fans of motorsports RACING?
It's getting hard to tell.
But, I have to admit, from much of the invective I have received on this forum, and a good look at what my detractors often post about, I believe that they DO seem to have more of a 'gamer' approach to the game. Duping cars to gift, taking vanity photos, all these seem to have little to do with RACING. Consequently, it gets hard to swallow some of these folk's opinions that aspects of racing shortcomings SHOULDN'T be brought up frequently and critically. Maybe if I wanted a car collector's game, I wouldn't mind so much. But I PLAY GT5 TO RACE!
It is time, while the 'gamers' slowly abandon GT5 for the next 'collector's game', that PD paid those of us that WILL be playing GT5 in 4 years' time the attention we deserve. If they start to realize that non-racing 'upgrades' and nerfing features (rather than making them more realistic as options) is likely to alienate the very people who WILL keep them going through the long years of waiting (and those that play to get every car in every color and once achieved, move on), maybe they will pay more attention to the '30 of us'...
The truth is, look at any organized 'wishlist', and right up there at the top are most of our concerns.
edit: insult removed
09-29-2012 08:34 AM
Wow! Ok, I must say it because I finally experienced it in a room while racing. The 'No Collision" I personally do not care for it and I will not use it when I host a race for I find it to be a cheat as well and very distracting on top of that. Granted, I will only use it as some sort of tool if ever need be for whatever reason. But never in a race! It was sad that I found myself leaving when I so enjoyed the racing but could not get passed the fact of how bothersome the 'No Collision" was for me and how these guys love the fact that they can drive right through you with no consequences.
This is just me adding my two cents worth to the topic. Not complaining mind you and I know that I do not have to stick around if a group of racers were to use it(trust me, I won't either). Who am I to ask the host to change his features? No one but an additional player that leaves or repects his specs. I just wonder how many rooms I go in will be using this new feature? Not the majority I hope.
09-29-2012 09:36 AM
Yes, racing while ghosting like this is turned on is extremely annoying. This is what so baffles me as to why it would even be considered for GT.
Fortunately, it is just an option, but it will be one more thing to check when going into open lobbies.
09-29-2012 02:22 PM
After being absent for a bit I'm slowly catching up and the fog is lifting from the threads. IMO it was the easiest fix, or option, that PD could implement for certain complaints. They didn't have to do anything...... Agreed that no one (no game) is perfect, lot's they could have done instead, but they did do something. After all, we've been chasing ghosts around the track in every tt and all throughout gt academy. It would be fun if they could allow 2 people on a tt track so they could simultaneously race their line and discuss things. Just a thought.
Nevermind that, it's just another request for more. More from a 2 year old game that I've already bought and paid for. Maybe PD should have handed out change order request forms like I do.
09-29-2012 06:44 PM
I am 100% in agreement with Destinkeys on this. This feature is one more tiny step in the oppposite direction of a real racing simulator. I don't usually come in here to make constructive criticism because there seems to be a core group of GT5 apologists who will jump all over you and browbeat a "this is how racing REALLY is, junior" line over my cyber head. And having more autocross, LeMons, Skip Barber, and open track day seat time than my bank account can manage, I think I may have some constructive critcism to offer as far as "simulations" go.
I think it's time for PD to simplify the game by losing the gimmicks and getting the core principles of racing honed to perfection. It seemed like the first Gran Turismo was actually closer to this goal than GT5 is in some strange way. For all of it's PS1 caveman tech, it was a great sim that could have led to perfection in GT5 (especially considering how great GT4 was). I know that asking a Japanese firm to eschew an overly technical and gimmicky approach is blasphemous (I worked for Minibea of Japan for many years- I love them!), but this superb game could, and should, be on par with PC based iRacing. Turning off collisions is not a step in the right direction.
09-29-2012 07:47 PM - edited 09-29-2012 07:49 PM
I would like to make sure nobody thinks I am coming down on them for their opinions, I enjoy any constructive debate that may lead to a breakthrough of any form. The differences that I have with some is my ignorance to the world of game development, I can't imagine finishing a house, giving the keys over, collecting my money, and then some time later the owners coming back to me and saying, "you know, I think we want easy close drawer slides instead, for free." Obviously this is apples to oranges, but the mindset is the same, when I'm done with the project and you accept it by paying me, we've concluded our business. I guess I should refrain from posting the corporate point of view as it's not what we like to think about, but how far does the 480mil go when you only release one great game every 5 or six years. Heck, they probably spent close to 10% of that on thier new HQ.
09-30-2012 05:17 AM
I would like to make sure nobody thinks I am coming down on them for their opinions, I enjoy any constructive debate that may lead to a breakthrough of any form. The differences that I have with some is my ignorance to the world of game development, I can't imagine finishing a house, giving the keys over, collecting my money, and then some time later the owners coming back to me and saying, "you know, I think we want easy close drawer slides instead, for free." Obviously this is apples to oranges, but the mindset is the same, when I'm done with the project and you accept it by paying me, we've concluded our business. I guess I should refrain from posting the corporate point of view as it's not what we like to think about, but how far does the 480mil go when you only release one great game every 5 or six years. Heck, they probably spent close to 10% of that on their new HQ.
The difference is the client has design input BEFORE you put hammer to nail. There's blueprints, specs, codes, options and choices that have to be made before you can even start.
We have no such input. The game is offered as a product. The house or construction you do is under contract, it is "asked for". The game is "offered". While argument can be made that you buy it or don't, the reality is that any game that doesn't "offer" a response to it's deepest, most loyal fan base at least will not survive. That applies to EA, PD, Turn10 or any other company.
I can understand turning aside frivolous requests and single witch with a B posts about why this or that.
That's not the same thing as what's happening here. You are indeed comparing apples to oranges. What is being discussed in the threads that are serious are fundamental game issues that create an unsatisfactory experience, or at least make the satisfactory parts of the game harder to get through or manage.
What's most troubling is that PD DID spend all that time, money and man hours.
They decided to use it in ways that simply did nothing to address the fundamental issues, some of which have been in the game from release. Many are angry because they don't think PD is doing anything, they are upset because PD went fishing for an expanded market base with trinkets and gadgets and gizmos and left it's core fan base in frustration all this time wanting the same basic fixes as we asked for way back then.
If you went through all the planning and preparation for building a 2 BR bungalow, an then decided on your own to alter the plans and built a 1 BR A Frame instead, would you say the customer that paid for the job had a reason to complain..?
GT advertises itself as the real driving simulator, and states it's about racing and about the driving. The actual driving part they get right. They actually get it VERY right.
The problem is they take this wonderful million dollar Gemstone and place it in a genuine faux silver setting worth 50 cents on a good day.
They created an expectation, then perpetuated that expectation by continuing to update the game, add new "features" and fix "some bugs".
But they have left out the simple changes that would make this gem actually shine. They have ignored the pleas of those that support them more so than any other group. They have made life the most difficult for those that will be the only people still even wanting to play GT, let alone actually logging on and doing so.
That's the rub for me personally. Many of the things we've asked for are not nearly as complicated, nor would they require nearly the man hours of the myriad of new "features" that are little used at best, if not totally ignored.
In the end, as a business person, you understand what a "good customer" is.
Do you take care of your "good customers", or do you toss them aside chasing every $5 project you can get your hands on, knowing full well it'll cost you $10 to get it done..? I'd dare say, knowing what I do about you that you take very good care of the people that work with you , are loyal to your services and call on you whenever they need you. You appreciate that they recommend you to others, and when they call, no matter what the circumstance, you are more than willing to find a way to help them. I cannot in any sense picture you answering the phone, hearing their problem and saying "I don't care about that issue, call someone else". At the very least you would refer them to a known trustworthy person if you couldn't do the type of work they were asking about. PD is in essence telling us that we are the lowest on the priority list. They are indeed telling us "go try another game if that's what you want".
I'd also mention to not be disillusioned into thinking PD is not making money right now. What you paid for the game is likely closely matched by the in game advertising, deals with manufacturers and consumer products and special promotions they lend their game to. As evidenced by the ability to create new DLC, to create new "features" and to release updates it's clear that PD has had the money, has had the time and has had the manpower that could have been used to address these concerns. They chose not to.
The issue is that for all intents and purposes, whether because of misunderstanding or lack of communication or plain "just not getting it", they have simply chosen to ignore the one group of people that loves and plays and pays for their game more than any other. Every other group of GT "fans" has been addressed, chased or aggressively marketed to but the core fan...
It makes me feel as though I am being taken for granted that I will be here no matter what, and that because I will be here no matter what my concerns don't need to be addressed. PD imagines that I'll just stay in their back pocket forever. That simply is not the case. There are just too many options out there now that do have the thing we're looking for in a game, and the edge PD had in physics is fast evaporating, even amongst console game competitors.
All of us that are doing this are standing on the tracks waving big red flags at PD and screaming the bridge is out at the top of our lungs, but so far, the train hasn't even slowed down... That's not to say they haven't improved anything, but the physics changes are something they have always had the upper hand in, they HAVE to keep that ahead of the curve.
Where they have dropped the ball is in all the other aspects of game play, lobby and lounge setup, ability to get a little creative, the ability to control racing, the ability to set specific parameters for races. Where they've missed the mark is in the tools this core fan base could really use to continue to expand the core fan base by creating some really exciting and dynamic rooms. Instead we're forced into excessive limitations and work arounds, and spend an inordinate amount of time posting in a forum asking for them.
09-30-2012 05:26 AM
The thing that still astounds me is, in all my years reading GT5 forums, I don't believe I have ever seen ONE single request for this.
But tens of THOUSANDS for other, more race related options.
I presume that PD do not have unlimited time to improve GT5 while they work on GT6, so why is precious coding time wasted on something so utterly inconsequential and unasked for? It probably would have taken as little coding time to display fastest lap times with final results, something that many, many players have asked for since Day 1.
But we get something that no-one asked for, that virtually no-one wants (other than noobs completely incapable of using the brake button) and PD nerf the game just a little bit MORE.
I am convinced Kaz no longer plays this game. He can afford the real thing.