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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Engine swap

[ Edited ]
Jul 12, 2012

clacksman wrote:
It seems the prevailing opinion here is "anything the other game does is bad therefore it's useless" and that's an illogical leap. You guys can prefer GT all you want (that is what this forum is for) but you're not being reasonable about it.

If the first and only reason you can come up with to discredit an idea includes "F*za" you're one of these people.


No offense intended against you, because I consider you a great friend.

 

I AM one of those guys who HATES Forza, and am sick and tired of hearing about it. Most of the fans of said game seem to me to be idiots who want to indoctrinate the rest of the world like they are some Scientologists. I get increasingly weary of coming to the GT Forum and hearing about other games. Here's a free clue for all of you who love other games. I DON"T CARE about any other games !!!!! I am not saying that they are no good, I am not saying that GT is perfect for everyone. It is not even perfect for me. It is however good enough, and it seems to me to be evolving, however slowly that PD chooses to update the game.

 

I have never been a follower. I like what I like, and I could care less if the rest of the world agrees with me. I LOVE that not everything is the same. I hate it when any manufacturer or producer compromises their own original vision, sells out, and tries to emulate some competitor. We, the buying public then lose out.

 

If others want to love Forza, GRID, Burnout, Need For Speed, iRacing, rFactor, etc......

, great. Quit trying to make GT into your vision.

 

It is rather simple: I have met, talked and hung out with Kazunori Yamauchi one evening. I can tell every one of you this:

 

None of you are Kazunori Yamauchi............:smileywink::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:

 

BTW, I have been called "unreasonable" before.............:smileyvery-happy:

 

 

 

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Re: Engine swap

[ Edited ]
Jul 12, 2012

edit: Don't know how I posted a blank one, no delete button, carry on ...

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Fender Bender
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Re: Engine swap

Jul 12, 2012
Forgetful, maybe Im just butt-hurt cause Im 6'4" and couldnt fit in it. Hehe. If something like engine swaps could be implemented w/o detracting from gameplay then Im all for it. "More is better." Just seems rather unneccessary is all. I KNOW they can get 485 hp out of a 4 banger. I just saw that vid of Ken Block w/ the 650 hp Fiesta in S.F. Not sure about engine specs but it sure sounded tiny.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Engine swap

Jul 12, 2012

dmcallis wrote:

Gt physics ... Things are modeled instead of approximated, at least a lot more than F*rza.  It is the approximations which allow all these options - the physics aren't bothered by them because they aren't calculating to the level of GT. 


I don't think the physics engine contains such modeling, I think it contains nothing but approximations (well, approximations with a gloss of looks over them).  

 

Weight and weight balances are often incorrect by more than two percent (typical total variation from various internet sources).  The way you get there is by approximating.  There's enough of them correct that the correct ones aren't typos, so the incorrect ones are plain laziness.

 

Wheels don't change the weight of the car.  Same with the carbon driveshaft.  The way you get there (despite the descriptions available where you can buy those parts explaining the benefits of reduced weight) is by approximating the effects rather than modeling those bits as a part with their own mass and related forces. 

Somewhat similarly with adding a supercharger or turbocharger to an engine born without, or adding any extra bodywork - those should weigh something not just change the power curve and/or pp (beyond the obvious looks).

 

All weight reducing possibilities are irreversible, indicating how little of the car is modeled - if the body stuff existed as parts like the rest of the tuning stuff, you could change them back to stock like the rest of the tuning stuff.  Things like the transmissions only exist as math (you never see them) so they can be freely changed in several places because they don't interfere with the appearance.  If you're affecting the appearance you are either stuck with the hood pins forever via buying the hood, or have to sit through the GTAuto animations ... again.   

 

PD hasn't gone to the effort of approximating what most of the bits weigh so they can't interchange them out from one car to another without further showing this lack of actual modeling.  In the case of the RM process, I can accept the non-reversible nature, but the hood being irreversible is completely nonsense.

Same with other technical stuff GT doesn't have (tire/wheel sizing, tire pressure, more than one zone of tire temperature across the face, brake heat/wear) - they haven't yet figured out the approximations or how to present them so they're not a factor.

 

All this stuff I've described has been done in multiple pieces of software that run on various machines less powerful than a PS3, so I don't buy the programming-code-how-to argument.  If this stuff is approximations rather than actual modeling in the competitors software, my argument still stands - GT is still behind.

 

In short GT5 has a fake physics engine.  A beautiful fake, but a fake nonetheless.  They made the fundamental decision to first make it look good, and they suceeded.  

 

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Umbrella Scientist
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Re: Engine swap

Jul 12, 2012

Swerv, I know your education in sim racing happened in a different game, one of the truly well built console sims. There are great qualities to be found in other racing games that would be an improvement to GT. Engine swaps might be the worst example of that, but the point remains.  We don't want GT to be like other games. We want GT to be GT, and have all the cool stuff the other games have. It's only natural for people to want to cherry pick all the best features from competing products. Envy might be a sin, but it wouldn't be my first.

 

I honestly wouldn't do engine swaps very often if I could, and if I couldn't choose to ban them from competition I'd be annoyed, like I am right now with a lot of GT's online functionality or lack thereof.

 

I think you should separate the terrible people from the games themselves. Fans of any and every game go too far arguing on the internet. The reason you only hear from those types is because the normal Forza fans aren't trolling GT forums. Sometimes failing to admit the shortcomings of a game, or to acknowledge the good things that the competition does is just as bad though. It certainly doesn't help GT get better over time. It's one thing to say what PD should have done in the past, or to call them bad people for not including enough Mustangs, but it's another to make suggestions and to try to gain support for ideas on how to improve GT in the future, and yes, many of those ideas are likely to come from other games. That's not unreasonable and shouldn't draw your ireshould it?

 

Kazunori is no doubt a visionary and a pioneer, but the reality of the health of Sony, the Playstation brand, publishing schedules, mistakes he's admitted to and the aggressive nature of their competition have GT fighting to keep up with what is happening in sim racing and car games. I sure hope GT5 in it's current form isn't Kaz's grandest vision. He did say he wanted about two more years. 

 

To be fair I think GT5 is heavily compromised and it could be some time before we see something even close to Kaz's grandest vision due to factors mostly beyond his control. 

 

I might not be Kazunori, but Kazunori doesn't have some of the things I want, like Porsche DLC, a livery editor and a full online league functionality, and in his last interview he did say that as long as people keep asking for Porsche DLC that it would always be a possibility, so... Porsche DLC, livery editor and full online league functionality, if you can, please and thank you. While we're talking I'd be cool with drivetrain swaps, since it's hot-topic. 


For the record I bought a 1 year subscription to Iracing two days ago. I'll be racing GT5 just as often, but I will race more because there's just so much racing going on all the time, and it's all in defined cars with clear rules and clean racers. Their physics are good, but whether or not they're better than GT's is probably a matter of opinion. I'm now very confident when I say that GT5 is one of the best physics engines available. What really stands out about Iracing is the league organization and track selection (though most of it is paid DLC). Their livery editor is simple but effective as is their helmet and suit system (make's GT5's look like a hot mess). I really hope GT develops an online interface that coordinates and organizes racing as well as Iracing does. It doesn't have to be identical, but it's a great example of what works to get people out racing the way they should be.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Engine swap

Jul 12, 2012

ForgetfuI wrote:

Swerv, I know your education in sim racing happened in a different game, one of the truly well built console sims. There are great qualities to be found in other racing games that would be an improvement to GT. Engine swaps might be the worst example of that, but the point remains.  We don't want GT to be like other games. We want GT to be GT, and have all the cool stuff the other games have. It's only natural for people to want to cherry pick all the best features from competing products. Envy might be a sin, but it wouldn't be my first.

 

I honestly wouldn't do engine swaps very often if I could, and if I couldn't choose to ban them from competition I'd be annoyed, like I am right now with a lot of GT's online functionality or lack thereof.

 

I think you should separate the terrible people from the games themselves. Fans of any and every game go too far arguing on the internet. The reason you only hear from those types is because the normal Forza fans aren't trolling GT forums. Sometimes failing to admit the shortcomings of a game, or to acknowledge the good things that the competition does is just as bad though. It certainly doesn't help GT get better over time. It's one thing to say what PD should have done in the past, or to call them bad people for not including enough Mustangs, but it's another to make suggestions and to try to gain support for ideas on how to improve GT in the future, and yes, many of those ideas are likely to come from other games. That's not unreasonable and shouldn't draw your ireshould it?

 

Kazunori is no doubt a visionary and a pioneer, but the reality of the health of Sony, the Playstation brand, publishing schedules, mistakes he's admitted to and the aggressive nature of their competition have GT fighting to keep up with what is happening in sim racing and car games. I sure hope GT5 in it's current form isn't Kaz's grandest vision. He did say he wanted about two more years. 

 

To be fair I think GT5 is heavily compromised and it could be some time before we see something even close to Kaz's grandest vision due to factors mostly beyond his control. 

 

I might not be Kazunori, but Kazunori doesn't have some of the things I want, like Porsche DLC, a livery editor and a full online league functionality, and in his last interview he did say that as long as people keep asking for Porsche DLC that it would always be a possibility, so... Porsche DLC, livery editor and full online league functionality, if you can, please and thank you. While we're talking I'd be cool with drivetrain swaps, since it's hot-topic. 


For the record I bought a 1 year subscription to Iracing two days ago. I'll be racing GT5 just as often, but I will race more because there's just so much racing going on all the time, and it's all in defined cars with clear rules and clean racers. Their physics are good, but whether or not they're better than GT's is probably a matter of opinion. I'm now very confident when I say that GT5 is one of the best physics engines available. What really stands out about Iracing is the league organization and track selection (though most of it is paid DLC). Their livery editor is simple but effective as is their helmet and suit system (make's GT5's look like a hot mess). I really hope GT develops an online interface that coordinates and organizes racing as well as Iracing does. It doesn't have to be identical, but it's a great example of what works to get people out racing the way they should be.


When most of my exposure to Forza is idiots and trolls, it's easy to see how I can have the Opinion that I have about their clientele and as a direct result, their game.

 

Dan Zitions is a noteable exception. He is a great guy that likes both games, so is RedRkt.

 

Just because I don't care to hear about Forza, Burnout, Need For Speed, iRacing, rFactor, Live For Speed, GRID, etc., doesn't mean that other people CAN"T voice their Opinions about their love for said games. That still doesn't mean that I feel like being constantly bombarded by everyone's displeasure with GT5, and mad love for "all the cool stuff we should have(PD Owes it to us , don'cha know:smileywink:) . Yeah, we all get it. GT5 doesn't have Porsche. Beat that Dead Horse some more, I think that I just saw it move.

 

I am just as sure that many people on this Forum don't care to hear all my opinons on everything that I write about. That's the danger with Forums. They are inherently a place where someone or ones try to shove their opinion down the rest of the world's throat, like it or not. But, we keep coming back here and to other Forums, and we keep reading all the stuf that we like, dislike, agree on and disagree on. I guess that we all need to just " Charge It To Da Game"

 

I have mad respect for you. You are a great friend and always have been. That certainly doesn't mean that we agree on everything. We'll just have to press on, each with our own views and opinions, and love each other for our differences.

 

That's Real, Son.:smileywink:

 

In closing, do I think that PD will make a lot of substaial deviations or changes to their plan based on the opinions of a handful of people on this Forum, Your Forum, TPRA, GT Planet,.,.. ?

 

They say that they might, I doubt that it will make a huge difference, if any. I'm not saying to give up, I just really don't think that PD is going to vary much from their current plan............

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Engine swap

[ Edited ]
Jul 12, 2012

I saw my name... Interesting arguments from all sides, and some that are a bit jaded and simplistic. A couple got kudos for being insightful beyond the run of mill 4za frenzy nonsense.

 

But I digest...

 

Part of being an adult vs being a troll is the ability to "agree to disagree", put it behind you and remain respectful friends, or as SWERV puts it, to "charge it to da game"...

 

I don't want GT4ZA... My issues with GT are GT specific. Many of them are created by GT, for GT. 4za has it's own issues, which are conveniently censored on their forum. They don't let you even express an opinion half the time, let alone discuss it. That's how you treat children, and says WAY more than anyone here ever could about the typical 4za player.

 

Engine Swaps go back to the earliest roots of hot rodding, and to the earliest days of racing. The SHELBY Cobra, first with a 289 and then with a massive 427 was a British AC sports car with an engine swap. Cars have been built around engines, and engines swapped into cars for decades in both the custom world and the racing world. It's not some silly or simplistic game concept.

 

That said, GT doesn't have enough control as it is. We are given very little to use tool wise to restrict, limit balance or otherwise create racing series beyond no tune/full tune or PP balance... Which we all know is hardly balance at all. Being allowed to swap engines with out the ability to mandate CID restrictions, car make, engine type or anything else is just another way to add chaos to the current lack of limit setting abilities.

 

Would it be cool...?

 

Sure.

 

Would it make better racing...?

 

Not a chance.

 

This is where the real issue is concerning GT5, GT6 and any other iteration afterwards...

 

Is GT going to remain a closely guarded and sternly controlled racing game or is it going to expand to include the hot rodding mentality.

 

Is GT going to remain a limited vision of certain types of racing or is going to expand it's "horizons" and include the kind of racing that grass roots people like myself are familiar with...?

 

Is GT going to give us glimpses into racing history, or are they going to give us the tools we need to recreate and relive the glory of racing in that time...?

 

Is GT going to EVER see the painfully obvious or are they going to hide their head in the sand and rest on the physics engine laurels..?

 

I've said before, and will continue to say PD creates many of it's own problems. They get the cart before the horse. Their idea of a solution many times is simply to decrease the size of the "they are so ticked at us" pool. They exert control when they don't need to, and keep things closed off to the player that would infinitely increase a player's enjoyment of the game, and I believe they do this at great peril to themselves.

 

If PD is NOT reading this forum, and taking into consideration the thoughts expressed here, they are fools. This is about as easy as it gets when it comes to market researching your target audience. Any company that sets up a forum like this and then ignores it's content is just plain stupid. I understand passing by the trolls, dismissing the trivial crying and whining. But for all the fat, there's a ton of good meat here. Either PD wants to know what we think and use that information to make a better game, or they want to become an also ran trying to live on past glory while the competition passes them by. Seen it both ways many times, and only PD can choose it's path... But to ignore the insights on some of these pages by many an author is a waste on a colossal scale. I dare say GT should fall flat on their faces if they throw away the ideas and theory and reasoning typed out by the likes of those above me.

 

Kaz' vision was to be the center of the car universe.

 

Unless they happen to accidentally lose 1/2 of that universe in a big black hole while on the way to office one day, it'll never happen. PD doesn't even see 1/2 the universe they speak of. Innovation, invention, customization, aftermarket, "bending the rules" like the infamous banana Galaxy or Smokey's Chevelle. Rewriting the rule book as Shelby did with the Cobra and the Daytona Coupe. The innovation of downforce and the engineering marvels of Formula 1, Indy Car, any one of the world's Touring Car Championships and even NASCAR in days gone by.

 

PD doesn't seem to want to recognize self expression was as every bit a part of racing history as engineering or physics. All those great machines were visions of men and women... How they looked, how they ran, what they represented.

 

And the penultimate lack of understanding...?

 

Teaming up with Red Bull to build an imaginary super car, making it what they wanted...

 

Yet denying the player the same type of opportunity in absolute BASICS like wheels, stripes, car numbers or paint.

 

It's OK for them to customize, but not us. It's OK for them to dream up countless rally cars based on prototypes that were never released, but not us. It's OK for them to number cars (..or should I say MIS number cars or forget to put numbers on them altogether..) but not us.

 

This has nothing to do with 4za.

 

It has everything to do with a player's desire to control his or her racing environment and tailor it to what they enjoy.

 

It has everything to do with a player's desire to recreate great times in racing history and relive a glimpse of what it looked and felt like.

 

It has everything to do with allowing a player to play the game without having to work around needlessly placed and short sighted limitations.

 

And if I want to swap an engine, why not...?

 

Shelby did it and became a legend.

 

Someone here mentions it and they get flamed as a 4za fan boy or an (..insert name of any other racing game here..) wanna be.

 

There's something inherently wrong with that premise and something very wrong with that line of thought altogether.

 

There is no defense. There is no right. There is no "way to do it" that will meet every expectation.

 

There's also no need to label or belittle any idea because it's in another game... Nor crack down the person who asked about it no matter what the reason. That's prejudicial and biased, and the basis for hate. There's no more room for that anywhere about anything whether it be a game title or skin color or anything else. There's more than enough hate for everyone out there already. We don't need that Carp here, ever.

 

GT5 has room to improve. Let's keep our eyes where they belong and work on that. Let's keep our discussions to the relevance of that, and not to how this or that compares to it. Let's focus our energy on ways to get PD the messages we need to send them and stop wasting time telling people what "fun" is and what "racing" is and whether or not a person fits the GT profile.

 

GT is what you make it. GT is what I make it. GT is what Kaz makes it.

 

Or at least what PD ALLOWS us to make it.

 

Please help to convey the message to PD that we want to be ALLOWED to make GT5 more than it currently is...

 

The more we're allowed to do, the better the game will be for ALL of us.

 

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Engine swap

Jul 13, 2012

Eloquently spoken / written,  my friend. Kudoed immediately.

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PlayStation MVP
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Re: Engine swap

[ Edited ]
Jul 13, 2012

Clacksman:
I agree with you it is frustrating being told (which we all know already) these lightweight parts are lighter than the old parts and then seeing no change in the car's weight. Huh? Same for adding stuff. But this has nothing to do with the actually physics algorithms. The numbers those algorithms use, yes, but not the actual simulation - the code.

Don't miss the operative phrase in my post "at least a lot more than F*rza". I'll stand by what I said, as a programmer... Both games make sacrifices to actually get decent framerates with the detail and an approximation of reality physics wise. PD went with the physics being first. (remember the shadows and pop-ins we had in the beginning...) 4za (like that spelling, Dan) is more visual (which is why I call it "The Car Show Simulator") and is about impressions. Impressions of complexity and control being what this thread is about.
Yes the physics in GT are fake. Any simulation is. By definition, it isn't real.
The question is always "how well does it match reality - that which is being simulated"? I think the compromises PD made are better than those made in the other game in regard of driving experience, how well it simulates really driving a car...
Do you REALLY disagree with that?

 



You made some good points, but as I said, I stand by what I said. I said some valid things too... :smileyhappy:

Please forgive the spelling, I'm hurting a bit and there is no spellcheck on the "quick reply"... :smileysad:

 

EDIT: But you can edit and spellcheck then...  :smileyhappy:

 

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Re: Engine swap

Jul 13, 2012

SWERV_GRIFFIN wrote:

Eloquently spoken / written,  my friend. Kudoed immediately.


Many thanks, and kudos back atcha...

 

But alas, I am but a humble servant of many Mastr-s...  :catlol:

 

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