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Gaming Beast
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

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Jan 16, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

The point (in case anyone could have possibly missed it) is that it is a well KNOWN issue. And that most other games deal with the issue by simply allowing a tiny deadzone adjustment.

 

Rather than blame Logitech for not making something that lasts forever (really? that's your assessment?!), how come you feel no blame falls at the feet of PD for not implementing the same, bone-numbingly simple fix that solves the problem for other games? Why doers PD get this free pass, but Logitech is supposed to engineer (for $125 at that) something that defies the laws of physics and economics, and never wears out? Do you honestly expect this from all your electronics?

 

The solution is SOFTWARE (and easy to program software, at that), not expecting Logitech to engineer the impossible.


 If Logitech bears no responsibility for $125 then how does PD for $60 ? Logitech has never put out a bug fix, or improved upon the product in the last two years so why oh oh why no matter how EASY should PD. The problem obviously exists but the answer as to who is culpable is as highly contentious here as it would be in a court of law. I say be proactive as the owner and apply silicone grease to any moving part from the get go, I don't understand what happened to personal accountability in the debate.
<edit> fishing reel grease is ideally suited for small servos and gears by the way

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 16, 2013

Astounding... Presumably, if Kaz ever turns up in a photo next to a dead hooker, someone here will say she deserved it!

 

Please someone, just explain why other games put in the deadzone code, and PD don't..? Explain why other games choose to acknowledge that peripherals aren't made to last forever (how many pads you guys been through, so far?), and a responsible racing game maker prefers to put in simple code to fix the problem, rather than leaving their players with an often expensive problem.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 16, 2013

MastrGT wrote:

I always thought of a deadzone setting as a software "player comfort" adjustment, not a hardware fix.

 

It may have ended up being used by some as a hardware fix, but that isn't its raison d'être.


Spot on.  

 

It is something I'd like to see though and I hope it makes an appearance in GT6.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 16, 2013

The other day, after a few too many laps around Motegi with its tight turns, a piece of plastic broke off the bottom of my chair.  I contacted PD to get it fixed, but they sent me a diagram with some odd symbols that seem to suggest that I should contact Ikea.

Then the overhead light blew making the basement as gloomy as a tomb.  Hearing this, PD suggested that Lara Croft's support team could help.  I contacted Kit on his PDA, but he said they were too busy, somewhere in the Andes, helping Lara perfect the double backflip over the chasm of bubbling lava while firing two pistols at the demon lizard, to help me with a bulb.  I said surely I should be able to map the triangle button on the wheel to change it.

And then my hands started slipping off the wheel.  PD offered to send me a used but still serviceable pair of racing gloves, but I said it should be easy enough for them to find a new pair to match my suit and helmet.  If I can't look stylish when I get to the podium, the franchise is ruined.

 

But then Mr Steele-of-the-too-many-initials, you'll be pleased to know, I got a bit of glue, repaired the chair, changed the bulb and said, screw it, I'm a tough race car driver, I can cope with mismatched gloves.



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Keyblade Wielder
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 16, 2013

FWIW, I don't think having a definable "dead zone" would be a perminent fix.  A pedal system, especially the DFGT with it's lack of durability, will eventually cause you to need a dead zone so huge, that the pedal travel would be very strange and the distance between 0 throttle and 100% would be too short for normal gameplay.

 

I agree programmers can and should  try to make their game flexible, but certainly more blame lies with Logitech, but not for making a unit that doesn't work indefinitely (because peripherals break, and this price point gives a good value)  but for not offering a cheap replacement for the pedals or a write-up on how to do your own perminent fix.

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 16, 2013
OzD, I have to say that this illustration you posted is again hilarious and drives an excellent point home.
Personally , I am on my third DFGT (3rd one I bought for a GT5 event here at my house) The first one was losing it's responsiveness at the wheel and the dreaded sticking brake at the peddle base. I wore it out because of the RedBull Time Trial challenge last year on the Monza track to get my name on that 250 leader board list! Which I happily accomplished.
The thing is, I did not maintain the peddle base like I should by covering it to prevent dust accumulating inside. Also, my setting on the wheel was wrong with the RedBull which caused a lot of "chatter" if you know what I mean by that? So yes, it is up to us to be mindful of how harsh we can be with some these after market peripherals and maintain them.
Are they not also made to wear out like everything else? Especially the lower end models. That's how they make their money so that we buy the same one or the next one up. So if we are an unhappy consumer guess what? We go somewhere else. However, it would be nice if they sold parts replacements for their units.
" A defeat is good for the character if you take it the right way."

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 17, 2013

Destinkeys wrote:

The point (in case anyone could have possibly missed it) is that it is a well KNOWN issue. And that most other games deal with the issue by simply allowing a tiny deadzone adjustment.

 

Rather than blame Logitech for not making something that lasts forever (really? that's your assessment?!), how come you feel no blame falls at the feet of PD for not implementing the same, bone-numbingly simple fix that solves the problem for other games? Why doers PD get this free pass, but Logitech is supposed to engineer (for $125 at that) something that defies the laws of physics and economics, and never wears out? Do you honestly expect this from all your electronics?

 

The solution is SOFTWARE (and easy to program software, at that), not expecting Logitech to engineer the impossible.


my point is.....the software does not and (imo) should not compensate for the shortcomings of another manufacturer. And like I said in case you missed it....there is no one to blame.  I wish my dfgt would last forever but i know it wont....I accept that....but i fixed it and it works. I do not expect(or want) PD to make adjustments for my worn out wheel.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 17, 2013

As far as player 'comfort' goes, the deadzone for pedals doesn't strike me as having anything to do with comfort. Or do you guys drive with your foot actually resting firmly on the brakes?

 

Deadzones have always struck me as addressing certain hardware problems. In the case of footpedals, they address the issue of non-zero input causing brake drag or engine revving. What other use could they have..? Other games often provide 'scaling' functions, which allow you to weight pedal response towards the lower or upper ends of the travel, but still use the full input values... perhaps this is what you are thinking of when you bring up 'player comfort'? Some players would prefer to have more braking at the early part of the travel, some would prefer less at the early part...

 

But pedal 'deadzone' essentially has no function other than to cancel out non-zero values being sent when the pedal is at rest.

 

Steering wheel 'deadzones', OTOH, have a different function, but related to the same issue. Some games FFB seem to be exceptionally sensitive to the first few values to the immediate right and left of top dead center. This often results in the wheel, especially after the initial 'tightness' being played off, oscillating gradually, as the tiny L&R values get feedbacked on by the FFB. This is a form of hysteresis, if anyone is interested.

 

We used to see this on many of the GT5 cars until updates fixed them. Remember the update that stopped the EvoIX from 'wobbling' along on straights..? Same with many others. Software, addressing a hardware issue...

 

So why software can't be used to address a hardware issue with the brakes? PD have already shown they are perfectly willing to address software issues with the wheel itself.

 

But, all this aside, what still beats me is, when other games already DO provide a simple to code fix for the issue, why do we not care (let alone actively request it ) that PD do not?

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MVP Support
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 17, 2013

Deadzones in pedals are mainly used to compensate for the speed at which players press on the pedals (stomping or not) and how that affects playing the sim, and to set a range through its arc for when the driver wants braking to be applied (or not). The longer the deadzone, the longer it takes for, say, a stomper to start braking. Depending on the sim, the rate at which brakes get applied can make it hard to play. (Now, we can well hear your howls of laughter about braking style, but that's OK.)

 

Deadzones were not created as a software fix for mechanical problems, just a way to adapt a mechanical interface to the human body and how we play.

 

If your pedals have mechanical problems, get them fixed. Can a deadzone be applied for other purposes? Of course. We are just suggesting that that isn't why they exist.

 

Could GT players benefit from having deadzones? Probably, maybe with some wheels more than others, but PD, so far, has done very well at designing GT so that they are not necessary, a requirement for doing well or for having fun.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Driving Force GT pedal problem

Jan 17, 2013

So, is the DFGT the ONLY wheel that eventually gets drag problems? Or, if it appears on other wheels, there is software for the wheel itself that allows a dead zone to adjust out the drag?

 

And is the deadzone is supposed to accommodate players who want to drive with their foot already pressing on the pedal somewhat (I read you right?)? Because that makes no sense to me. Who drives dragging the brakes in real life? In a real car, if the brakes are dragging, you can adjust them until they aren't. But you don't set them up so you can drive pressing the brakes constantly...

 

Unless others are having much larger problems than me (I already disassembled my DFGT once to bend the gears back a bit, and it seems to have mostly solved the issue as long as I keep it clean and calibrate carefully the first time out), brake drag is TINY.... almost impossible to be able to do with my feet (barely a feather touch on the pedals gets it to the drag point). I can't see how this can be dealt with in any other way than a deadzone. Certainly a re-engineer of the DFGT without a huge price increase is unlikely to solve the issue over any length of time. I have had my DFGT for about 4 years now, and it has had some pretty serious use. For something that gets used by the feet, as actively and forcefully as all pedals do, to be honest I am amazed at how well it HAS lasted!

 

But if a simple piece of code (to an OFFICIALLY supported wheel, at that!) is denied me and I have to buy another one, I tell you straight, after seeing the same code in other racing games fix the issue, I am not going to be mad at Logitech, but at PD!

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