Reply
Fender Bender
Registered: 08/01/2006
Offline
4384 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

Jetlag777 wrote:


ZMANIA wrote:

diesel-LR wrote:

 Try not to "block".  Blocking and hindering a faster opponent, is unsportsman like.  Blocking however in the last few turns of race is permitted, as in protecting your position could be vital.

 


So blocking in the last few turns is not "unsportsmanlike"? First turn or last turn... IMHO you get one move to block and that's it. I consider it pretty unsportsmanlike if someone makes a second move to block... some even make a third and forth. Some wiggle all over the road trying to get in the way to slow me down. It's all unsportsmanlike to me. Once we have private rooms and leagues form, I'm sure that these types of things will be clearly defined.


I must emphazise the importance of understanding the proper way to do passing.   Passing is an important part of racing and it is an skill that people must understand.  It does not involve ramming or just doing whatever it takes to gain the position.  In real racing, you risk your life doing stupid things and perhaps that is why we find so many cheap drivers online who do not have the talent to make a proper pass.  Blocking should also never be permitted, even on the last lap.... yes you can defend your line and make one move, but you cannot to go all over the road just to block the other driver.

 

On normal conditions, if you are able to catch another car, the CAR BEHIND is primarily responsible for making sure that he does not crash into the other car.  Yes, sometimes you might be faster but do not have the conditions to make the proper pass and in those situations you must have patiente as stated in another thread that Forgetful linked in the first page of this thread.  However, the CAR IN FRONT, must also understand if there is a clean pass that is being attempted by the other driver and allow the pass to be made cleanly.  

 

As bad as it is to ram, crash, or take your oponent out to overtake, it is also cheap to "- illegitimately prevent a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver" or "illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking", as the FIA Regulations State.  Therefore, you should be corteus and learn to give and take.  You'll have better races when you can race side by side and back and forth with other drivers.  You'll earn respect.

 

So the question is, How do you make a proper pass?  

 

When you know that you’re close enough to try for a pass, you’ll need to study the other driver’s line into the turn.  Take your time, study your oponnent. Thats what real drivers do.  If he’s toward the outside of the turn, your opening to get by will be toward the inside. If he’s hugging the inside, change your line toward the outside of the turn. The point here is to try to take advantage of any gap between your opponent and the track borders that’s as close to the “fast” driving line as possible. The following is an explanation of some typical passing techniques (taken from other sources, but fully applicable here). 

 

The inside block-pass:
This is when you pass the other car by going inside of the turn and basically stealing his line. In order for this pass to work cleanly, several conditions must be met. First, you must be very close (almost dead even) with the car you intend to pass. Secondly, the car you intend to pass must be toward the middle or outside of the turn. LASTLY, THE OTHER DRIVER SHOULD BE COURTEOUS ENOUGH TO GIVE UP HIS LINE ONCE YOU’VE OCCUPIED IT (IF NOT, YOU’LL BOTH GET TANGLED UP).
The trick to this type of pass is to quickly occupy the space that your opponent was planning on using. To get by the other car, you’ll need to enter the turn “hot,” i.e., faster than you normally would, and use the brakes to slow the car so that you don’t overshoot the turn (you can also slide your car to slow it down). Essentially, you will be out-braking the other guy. Once you commit to the pass, you’ll need to protect your line to prevent the other car from passing you back. Just stay as close to the inside of the turn as you can, and the other car will be forced to drive a longer line in order to get back around you (he shouldn’t be able to do this if you’ve executed the pass properly). THE WRONG WAY TO DO THIS, IS TO ENTER HOT AND THEN INVADE THE OTHER GUYS LINE, RAM HIM AND SEND HIM INTO THE WALL.

 

The outside-inside move:
This is the racing equivalent to a head-fake in basketball. As its name suggests, this is a pass in which your car enters the turn toward the middle or outside (depending on where the other car is), leading your opponent to believe that you’re taking the outside line. Instead as your car approaches the middle of the turn, you suddently square your line and head out of the turn toward the inside, hopefully driving past the other car toward the inside of the turn.
This type of pass usually works best when the turn exits onto a fast section of track such as the straightaway. This helps make your pass stick because, if done properly, a good outside-inside pass will give your car greater speed when exiting the turn.

The old inside-to-outside pass:
This uses the technique of early apexing to allow you to slide by your opponent while simultaneously blocking his path out of the turn. To make this type of pass, you must enter the turn while sticking to the inside as closely as possible. Once you’ve reached the turn’s apex and are ready to accelerate out of the turn, let your car drift wide.  If you’ve done this maneuver cleanly and properly, it’s a perfectly legal and clean move.

The plain old blow-his-doors-off move:
As it’s name suggests, this type of pass can only occur when you either have much more straightaway speed than your opponent or if you are able to carry much greater speed out of the corner preceding the straightaway. This, by the way, is one of the few types of passing techniques that doesn’t involve cornering IDEAL FOR BEGGINERS.
Unlike passing which takes place during cornering, passing another car on the straight is best done with as much space between your car and the other as possible.

 

AND AS FOR ETTIQUETTE :  Above all else, be courteous!
Remember that no matter what, racing is a game – you’re supposed to be having fun out there! If you think you are faster than someone,make the effort to pass them cleanly. Too many people choose instead to bully their way past other cars. These people take some of the fun out of racing because to the rest of us, driving a clean race is nearly as satisfying as winning. Whenever I’m in a close battle with someone, and they get by me cleanly, I almost always will think to myself – nice pass, man! If every person drives with respect and courtesy, racing will become even more fun!
 

 

 

 

 

 

 


I don't know where you have been Jetlag777, but your post is a nifty bit of writing, and good solid advice on how to drive in competition.  Hopefully many people will read this.

 

Good descriptions of how to pass effectively and safely.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I guess by your handle you must be a 777 pilot or copilot?

Message 60 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Fender Bender
Registered: 08/01/2006
Offline
4384 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

MasterGT wrote:

imfaster wrote:
for me this racing etiquette thingy boils down to 2 different philosophies...

A dirty racer doesn't have any etiquette because to have etiquette one has to have some sort of ethics that fits the conventions of the society in which they are applied.

In other words, dirty drivers are outsiders. They may be among us, but they certainly don't "fit in".

Cheers,
Nicely put Mgt
Message 61 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Fender Bender
Registered: 08/01/2006
Offline
4384 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

imfaster wrote:

Doublez1 wrote:
Just bringing this up. It's kind of answered but not all at once...
Whenever I try to make a side by side pass throught the esses at hsr, me or the person I'm passing usually ends up spinning out or hitting the wall. If I start my pass on the outside for the first turn of the esses (turn after the bridge if going forwards) that puts me on the inside for the second turn. During the second turn the person I'm passing turns in on me and bumps me (not on purpose). They usally spin out or go wide and hit the wall.

Is it my fault for holding my passing line and they came down on me?  no
Is it my fault for not letting off?  no
Is it his fault for not knowing his surrondings?  yes
or Is it niethers fault?  no

Is it my fault for holding my passing line and they came down on me?  i could not possibly see that hoding your racing line would be wrong if you both entered the corner at the same time side by side.  if your opponent enters the esses first, in front of you he/she should have the right to take whatever line they decide to because they're in front.  it would be considered their fault for coming down on you in the corner if you are side by side.

 

Is it my fault for not letting off?   if you enter a corner side by side with someone you have every right to be right there beside them.   if someone leaves the window of opportunity open its certainly going to rain on they're parade.   it puts the ball in the court of the opponent and makes them decide wether or not they have the skills to drive that less than perfect line and still be able to make it thru the corner with the same or faster speed than you.   most people are intimidated by side by side racing and will back off not knowing what will happen if they can't drive their "perfect" line.   but its also where the dual responsibility comes into play...as well you have to decide whether or not this is a "risky" manouver and you're taking a huge chance on taking yourself and your opponent out of the race.   think of it this way...most professional race car drivers will tell you that they think well ahead of where they are on the track...usually 2 to 3 corners ahead.   if you are entering corners with other opponents you should be well aware ahead of time what risk factors are going to be in play by entering said corner side by side with another racer.

 

Is it his fault for not knowing his surrondings?   absolutely yes.   your telling me that the guy could not see you or hear you???  don't think so.  i know that when someone is fastly approaching from behind i see them in the rearview mirror and that when they diisappear from my mirrors they are beside me and are about to get past me.  usually when someone is that close i can't even hear my own car's engine.  you have to be conscious and aware of yours and others space on the track.  if you're not then you're heading for trouble with a capital "T".

 

or Is it niethers fault?   no way possible...its always going to be someone's fault or at the very worst case both are at fault.   i know from past experience that if i make a mistake it can and will lead to a dominoe effect sucking in everything in its path like a huge vaccum.   if a person in front of you makes a mistake that's the time to step up a notch and capitalize on they're misfortune and come out the victor.   if you make a mistake right after they do it puts the both of you out of the competition...seen this scenario to many times to count.

 

some may disagree with my point of view but that's the way i see it Capt'n. 


 

Know as situational awareness or SA.  It is a term used by fighter pilots to describe a pilot's ability to know his location in space and the location of others, both friend and foe.

 

It is a term extremely applicable to racing on line and in real life.  It is a term right up there with PATIENCE in terms of it's importance regarding skilled and clean racing.

Message 62 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Wastelander
Registered: 02/24/2005
Offline
879 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

By and large I agree with the above post.  That said I agree that paitence and understanding need to be used on both sides.

 

 

Using myself as an example I will try to see just where someone is setting up for a turn - in particular in the esses - before I set my course.  My only issue at this point is there are some people who brake far earlier than I do while I drive similar to how I ride my bike IRL:  Late brake - smooth accelaration towards the exit with a gentle slide toward the outside.  I amend that when I'm going to come in underneath someone and just hold my line.  That person is not my BMX Berm, and I'm not thiers.

 

Occasionally I will run into a situation where I've followed a person and while I may feel I know what they're going to do they brake earlier than I anticipated (coupled with being in the draft = less downforce I believe) and I'll rear-end them.  When I do that I pull over - whether I recieved a penalty or not - and allow them to get back under power and have a lead before I try to catch them and pass appropriately.  I also try to send a network message to them right after the race.  I've only had one person who seemd to think I had hit them on purpose, and I was actually saddened by that one experience.  That said I personally always strive to be clean and controlled, but I also admit that I'm still working on my settings for race conditions.

 

 

One note about personal awareness on the track:

 

I use the *inside the car* veiw (there - that shouldn't be censored!) and in the past I've had wonderful 5.1 surround sound to help me know who was where.  Currently I don't have an Optical or HDMI input for my stereo, so I'm stuck with 2.0.  Why do I bring this up?  Because it makes it difficult (for me) to know just where that other car is that may be coming down into my line.  What I do - when in doublt - is hold my line for the following reasons:

  • By holding my line the other driver can predict where I'll be
  • I don't slide into her/him
  • I minimize my factor in causing an accident behind me
  • I do feel that I have a right to hold my part of the track; I was there first.

 

Well, that was as always just an opinion.

Message Edited by The Revengel on 08-28-2008 11:33 AM

http://www.ps3attitude.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Gran-Tursimo-5-Bottom-Banner.jpg

Message 63 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Splicer
Registered: 07/24/2008
Offline
90 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

lbloom wrote:


I don't know where you have been Jetlag777, but your post is a nifty bit of writing, and good solid advice on how to drive in competition.  Hopefully many people will read this.

 

Good descriptions of how to pass effectively and safely.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I guess by your handle you must be a 777 pilot or copilot?


 

Than you lbloom for your feedback. I've been doing some racing with the TS guys but I am still relatively new to posting on the forums... but have been reading the boards for a long time.   As per my username, indeed I am pilot, however I am not professional and I  only fly privately for fun, love the 777 though (Neverthelless with the high fuel prices, the price per hour for flying has gone to the roof... I can barely afford my car). 

 

Hopefuly, I will meet you at the track soon! 

 

 

Message 64 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Lombax Warrior
Registered: 08/18/2005
Offline
248 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Aug 28, 2008

imfaster wrote:

nvr2old2play wrote:
Apology accepted. Not upset at all. Was some good races with you side by side at times through the esses. You had me pushing myself just to keep up. All is good and look forward to more races with you.

 

great!!!  glad to hear it and i too look forward to many many more races with you as well. 

 

for me this racing etiquette thingy boils down to 2 different philosophies...

 

1)  race cleanly and respect other racers "space" on the track.  be aware of where your fellow competitors are on the track at all times.  racing in close quarters with others creates a higher intensity that absolutely takes practice not to get tangled into a big dog knot and taking each other out of a race.  of course the more you race with the same people ( like in the same league for instance ) you get more accustomed to the same mind set of equally sharing the same track with everyone in the same race.   when everyone shares the same goals its a helluva lot easier for everyone to have the same or equal chance to advance to the front...which is where everybody wants or hopes to be at the end of the race.  

 

its always easier to back off and not take that "chance" opportunity to pass in a less than desireable position coming into a turn.   if its going to turn out to be a "dirty" move or pass on an opponent...don't take it.   there will always be an opportunity later in the race.  if you are truly "faster" than the guy or guys in front of you it will come back to you at a more safer or opportune time.   that way the both of you ( the passer and passee ) will still be able to continue and hopefully complete the race all in one piece.  simply don't take that chance and survive today for a better race tomorrow...all the while earning those all important "Attaboy Luther"  points of respect from all of your fellow compadres.   and besides its just simply the point of its a lot more fun that way.

 

2)  race dirty and slam into everyone taking them out while on your way to the front and don't care where anyone is on the track as long as they're not in front of you unless they're being used as your brake going thru the turns thank you very much and take that with you...sound familiar???  it should because there are so many out there that think they know how to "race" and think they know the best way to the front...yeah right.  if you race like this you'll never earn any respect from me or any of my friends that i like to race with or anybody else for that matter. there are loads of people that think this way and evidentally the group that wants to race clean are in the minority catagory...can ya believe that???   hard for me to believe it but most of us here are in that minority group.

 

i totally agree with the point made by Willem about it is a dual responsibility of both drivers in close quarters to respect each others "space" on the track...no matter where it may be.  

 

Oldtimer pointed out that he really enjoyed going side by side door handle to door handle thru the esses at HSR and was pushing himself to keep up...it was the same exact thing for me buddy.   we both held our lines thru the esses and came out unskaved and were both able to complete that race without taking each other out of the competition for the front spot.  i hope there will be many more races with racers who share the same mind set as a guy like Oldtimer...get to the front as cleanly and respecfully as possible.  he sure earned a million "Attaboy Luther" points with me. 

 

just think about it the next time you're on the track and try to be aware of your surroundings.  unintentional contact has a completely different meaning because of the "un" in front. 


 

 What was enjoyable was the run of multiple laps in more than one race with the door handle to door handle and bumper to bumper racing. What made it even more fun was the fact there was no communication between the drivers just good racing with a little give and take. I end up starting at the front of the pack when the race starts and usually by the end of the second lap I'm wtching my mirror to see whos catching up. I then know at that point who I'm going to be running with or just trying to keep up with for the rest of the race. It's never about winning with me but finding that few good races to run with those who have the mindset to give you a good run. At times I can be sloppy and sometimes very sloppy. When it gets to that point I'll usually just pull over hit the start button (to use as a parking brake) and wait for the race to end. Was also mentioned by Forgetful that I was upset about pulling over to give me a couple wins. I do appreciate the gesture but it truly is not needed and I was laughing about it more than anything cause on a later race I was going to do the same thing but was out braked and still crossed the line first. Much thanks for the good times and look forward to more. To all the regulars on this forum your the ones who make the races fun, clean and most of all enjoyable. Thanks again and see ya on the track.
Message 65 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Umbrella Scientist
Registered: 05/06/2008
Offline
12271 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Sep 16, 2008
Added Bump drafting thread to the first page.
DriverSports.org
Message 66 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Umbrella Scientist
Registered: 05/06/2008
Offline
12271 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Sep 16, 2008
Fixed, thanks circa1991
DriverSports.org
Message 67 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Wastelander
Registered: 03/29/2005
Offline
753 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Sep 16, 2008

ForgetfuI wrote:
Fixed, thanks circa1991
I <3 you! 
you can call me akaTRENT
 bahaha! 

 

Much Love,




Message 68 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes
Umbrella Scientist
Registered: 05/06/2008
Offline
12271 posts
 

Re: Nothing

Sep 16, 2008

(circa 1991) wrote:

ForgetfuI wrote:
Fixed, thanks circa1991
I <3 you! 
you can call me akaTRENT
 bahaha! 

 


You're welcome, but tone down the lovey dovey stuff, you'll make Allstar jealous. Smiley Tongue

DriverSports.org
Message 69 of 423 (40 Views)
Reply
0 Likes