
07-01-2009 06:12 PM

-CALL OF DUTY WORLD AT WAR PROPER ETIQUETTE AND TIPS GUIDE-
***WARNING: THIS THREAD DOES NOT INVOLVE ANY OFFICIALS RULES, it is my personal opinion as well as MANY other gamers. Please do not flame instead give helpful thoughts.
Thanks and ENJOY!
*****UPDATE: I have added some new parts mainly in the tips section . ALL NEW ADDITIONS WILL HAVE A (*) IN THEIR TITLE******
-U2EDGE has written some tips and can be found here
To all the vets, the newbies, and those who are thinking of buying this game,
This is a guide that will explain the proper ways to act while playing the game, some tips on how to do better, and tips on how to make you MORE LIKABLE!!
This guide covers:
-How to speak when using the mic.
-Why do people choose those newbie perks (as some will say)
-I can't win, why not.
-Gamebattle teams compared to non-gamebattle teams.
-Many other tips and tricks to playing the game.
NOTE: EVERYTHING WILL BE SPLIT UP INTO SECTIONS.
A mic is necessary for success in this game. The mic only works however if it is used properly.
HERE ARE SOME DO'S and DON'T, while using the mic.
1)DO NOT CRITICIZE( UNLESS IT IS DONE TO HELP):
Players who don't do as well in some games, often find themselves the center of the conversation, in a bad way. If someone is doing bad, chances are that they know this and are upset as it is, THERE IS NO NEED TO START MAKING THEM FEEL WORSE. SERIOUSLY, please don't do it in another language either, you never know who understands what.
2)Don't eat and talk:
SImple, no one wants to hear the mushing and smushing sounds of you eating away at some piece of food. GROSS!!!
If you need to learn how to chew with your mouth closed, look on Google
3) MUTE BUTTON EXISTS:
You are in the middle of a 15 kill streak, going to kill another enemy and all of a sudden you hear: MOM NOT NOW I'LL DO IT LATER. Next thing you know is that you are dead and your kill streak went to waste. Yes, If your having another conversation, PLEASE press the mute button. Look below:
YES IT IS THE BIG BUTTON THAT SAYS MIC MUTE!!!
4) Never ever say anything racist:
PLEASE IT JUST AIN'T RIGHT. This is important, because you never know who listening.
5) Think before you speak:
Don't say random and useless information, because one of your team mates can be calling out for help and you might not even hear him. Also, no one wants or cares about your weekend plans.
6) IF YOU TALK THE TALK, you better walk the walk:
This is for your benefit. If you are saying how great you are and how amazing your kill death ratio is, you better deliver. If you say man I'm amazing but have a .30 k/d ratio, just stop, because someone will find out and your rep is ruined.
7) IS THERE ANYTHING MORE ANNOYING THEN A BABY CRYING!!!!!
8) MUSIC:
If I want to go to a club dancing, I will. No need for some Akon or Weezy, because we are there to play not to dance.
9) Be respectful and if your making STATIC, close the mic.
Way to act while playing the game, either in a match or in the lobby:
Have you ever played domination when people just take turns capturing B, well that is definitely the completely wrong way to act.
-Follow the way the game should be played, why cheat? When you cheat, all you are doing is cheating yourselves.
GLITICHING: If you like glitches soooooo much, why not become a beta tester and do it for money, EH??? Don’t use it in a game, it really isn’t fun
So MUCH SO THAT: IF YOU FIND A GLITCH REPORT IT IN. This should be done, because when people glitch its so not fun. The people can't die and they are pretty much invincible.
BOOTCAMP: Bootcamp is meant for those inexperienced ones, to start off and get used to the controls. WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE IN THE 10th prestige playing. You aren’t getting better, at all, and you are just taking advantage of those who are inexperienced for you k/d ratio.
CLAN WAR: If you want to have a clan war, just don’t do it in public.
DON’T CALL PEOPLE NEWBS: Honestly, newb, n00b or even NUB aren’t great words, why not use newbie, inexperienced one, newcomer. Newb is so downgrading.
PLus, half the people calling others newbs are newbs themselves.
GAMEBATTLES TEAMS COMPARED TO NON-GAMEBATTLE TEAMS:
There has been much talk about this and I have come to the consensus, that if you are on a RANKED gamebattles team, yes you are better because it is very hard to win on GB no matter if your the best or the worst. To those who don’t believe me, why don’t you try it out??
When you lose in any clan war whether it be in gamebattles or not gamebattles, just don't go and contest every aspect. IF YOUR BEAT YOUR BEAT, just work harder and come here to this thread to learn some ways to practice and/ or improve.
Why do some people use those perks and guns??
People are allowed to use whatever gun, attachment or perk they want, after all it’s in the game!!!
Talk about the MP40:
The MP40, is one of the best gun in the game. If a guy keeps on killing you with mp40, dual ammo and juggs. Instead of calling him a newb, why don’t you try it out.
THE NEWB TUBE:
Enough said, if it kills you then try it out!
TANKS:
If someone had 58 kills and used a tank, so what, it still took still. Driving tanks is still a very hard job to perform
-Its great that you were excellent in COD4 and that you were on a great clan. Please, don't go around saying that. The truth is that no one cares, if you do badly they'll just laugh, and this is COD W@W so if you want to play COD4, go right ahead.
-Don't show off about your accomplishments, this leads into respect also. If you say your one of the best players around, then a) We would know your name. b) Seen you on the leader-boards, or C) Have heard about you. Please don't go selling your rep and making people envy you, just show us and prove to us through the game and your NON-VERBAL ACTIONS, like 58 kills - 0 deaths.
Respect is necessary no matter where or when. In this game, respect is needed everywhere. If you win a battle, congratulations, just don't go and show it off in the other teams face, why not try some constructive criticism or nothing at all.
If you lose, then don't go dispute everything, unless you need to of course. Just try to get better, practice more, game more.
PLEASE NO TEA-BAGGING THE OTHER MAN'S BODY, IT REALLY IS PLAIN RUDE! WHo ever does that would probably HATE if someone did that to them. Just don't do it plain and simple.
For an "o" that bounces o the periods in ur clan tag, type "...." as your clan tag. For a rainbow to scroll through your name, type "rain" as your clan tag. For your name to bounce from left ro right, type "move" as your clan tag. For different colors to cycle through ur names type "cycl" as your clan tag. For a small red bar to move left and right across your name, type "cyln" as your clan tag
Like everyone knows practice makes perfect. So for those die hart beginners and/or vets whom want to improve their k/d ratio or just their overall performances: Look no further.
HERE ARE SOME TIPS ON HOW AND WHEN TO PRACTICE:
1) Even before your first game online, you should get your fingers and mind warmed up for the heated battle that is online multiplayer. To warm up, why not play a good 20 minutes of the campaign on veteran. (YES, you saw correctly) This will allow your senses to be at their peak, even if you die a couple dozen times.
2) Are you new to a map or a gamemode:
Well, then set your self up for a private match online with only yourself. Then take a walk around the map; looking for sniping points, camping spots, good cover areas, etc... When walking around don't be afraid to try running as fast as you can and pretend that there is a guy in-front of you.
3) Ask the people on your friends list to play with you, (OR ADD ME IF YOU NEED TO
) play online private games with them to test out new guns or strategies.
4) DEDICATION:
Be dedicated to what you want to get better at, if you want to get better at domination, then please don't go and play war.
5) PLAY, PLAY, and PLAY:
If you are new to the game, then please play bootcamp for your own sake. It is a vital tool for all newbies that should be used in order to get used to the controls, maps, etc...
If your not new, then play online matches very very often and keep fragging
6) Vary your games:
Trust me this does work, yes play COD W@W the most, but when your getting a little bit bored try some other games, here are some great ones:
Resistance 2: 60 player online team deathmatch; this helps when you are surronded by many people in COD
-Socom: This is a great game for teamwork, which by the way is essential in every game.
-Warhawk: This is great for making sure you keep an eye out for anything, including a few missiles
-Any other Call Of Duty Game.
Tips, Tricks, and STRATEGIES:*
WANNA GET BETTER, THEN FOLLOW THESE TIPS:
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-Here are some strategies made by Dreon
The COD series are great games for beginners of the genre because the learning curve is not that steep and it's not that difficult to master. It does take practice though. I admit, whenever I stop playing for a while, a month or so, I play like a noob when I come back, but after a few games you'll get the hang of it
Here are some tips that beginners might find helpful:
- Use auto-aim and Aim for the head
Whenever you shoot at person, aim for the head, it'll take them out a lot faster. If you put your crosshair's when shooting from the hip roughly on the enemy and then press L1 to zoom (on a non-scoped weapon), it'll automatically lock on to an opponent's torso, then you just move the crosshair slightly up and you should get a nice clean head or neck shot. I believe neck shots are equivalent to head shots, I'm not 100% sure though.
- Check your radar and Know your surrounds
As soon as you respawn, glance at your radar and check your immediate surroundings to see if theres anyone around you. Nobody likes to be shot as soon as they respawn. If you see someone try to take them out. If there's more than one, then chances of you survivoring are slim to begin with, so atleast try to take one of them out before they notice your there or if they're occupied with someone else then you could possibly take both out. Worst case, you'd get atleast an assist. As soon as your clear, find yourself some cover and look around to make sure no other enemies are nearby.
- Start yourself from the edge of the map.
If your not that familiar with the map, I would advise you to walk around to the outskirts of the map. That way you'd limit the region an enemy can surprise you from and you won't need to constantly check your back. Then start making your way through the level.
- Which way to go
If you see a large amount of enemies on the radar and these are just enemies that are shooting, then it's safe to head that way and attempt to kill them. You will have a better chance taking these one's out because they are already preoccupied in battle and their distraction is your benefit. If you or one of your team members (if playing a team game) aquired a helicopter and you see a large concentration of enemies close to each other then that's where they all respawned. You should approach with caution. If you have an automatic that's quickly reloadable then you'd have to move in and using cover wisely, you'd have to one by one take out each of them. This is the real test of your skills, to be able to go in and using cover be able to take out an entire team one by one. With my luck, I always run out of ammo and die trying to steal someone else's gun. If you can get this down in boot camp then you'll be well off.
- Make sure he's dead and Don't run over the guy you just shot
Once you leave boot camp, people will have perks like Martydom (I think that's how it's spelt). It allows them to leave a live grenade after they die. Just incase they have this on, don't run over their body, just get away from them. Another perk that could annoy you is the Last Stand perk. When a person dies, they fall on the floor and pull out their pistol and can still kill you using it. When this happens then you'd have to change when your aiming and finish them off. You could just double tap L1, so it autolocks on them again and shoot, it will only take one or two shots to kill them while they're like this depending on the gun. This perk is really annoying if your sniping someone and they're looking out a window and they fall into Last Stand out of your view. Then you could try to shoot through the walls, but if that doesn't work then your out of luck. You either have to wait for them to die on their own or you will get an assist if someone else kills them.
- Learn the map
I don't suggest you play offline and try to learn it. I'm still new to World at War, I haven't learned all the maps entirely, but you learn something new everytime you play. There are good hiding places, but if you sneak around you'll most likely find someone else in them when your out of boot camp. Even if you do know the map, I just suggest starting from the outside of the map and working your way around the map rather than cutting through the middle. Unless the middle's clear, you'll probably get hit by an enemy you didn't see.
Grenades
- When you see a large group of people you could chance it and throw a grenade. You could try to shoot them out one by one. If there's a lot and your not that far away, meaning that if they swarm you, your going to die, then I suggest throwing a grenade then they'll run away, you just kill whoever runs towards you, get cover, reload, then hunt them down. There are areas on the map that people tend to hide in and kill anyone that approaches from either direction. The best way to kill them is to throw a grenade into that room. Majority of the time, the people that are sitting waiting for someone to come will freak and try to run out but can't and get blown up.
I hope these tips help.
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-Objective Gaming Tips (EX: DOMINATION):
To go get the flag, the bomb, or whatever you need to do is very important. Yet, it is the actions that lead up to retrieving the flag or the bomb that are actually way more important.
HERE ARE SOME TIPS:
- You never know whose going to pop up in-front of you, that is why taking the extra few seconds to take the longer, safer and more indirect route can save you and your team many precious lives and games.
-Try using dead silence, and silenced weapons inorder to truley obtain that level of stealth.
-Yes, if the flag is in front of you, then get it. BUT PLEASE, make sure that no one is right there waiting for someone like you to ot even realize that your there. Why not, use the good mic tips and call out to one of your team mates for some much needed assistance.
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HEADQUARTERS:
-A very easy way to get XP, but being a team player is a must.
-If you have a chance to get the headquarters do it, don't wait around even if you get a death.
-When you are the last man standing pick a spot relatively close to the HQ so that you can maybe snag a few extra kills.
-Bettys: These should be placed on either side of the HQ or even at entrances near it. BE AWARE: For bettys to be useful, try to place them in a position so that others cannot see and/or shhot them. BEHIND WALLS, or CLOSED OFF AREAS SHOULD WORK.
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BETTY PLACING TIPS:
- A huge aspect of many objective games and non-objective games, is being able to plant betty is optimal places.
-Plant them when you need to guard an object or yourself. This works because they either die while trying to get to you OR they are stalled while trying to get rid of the bettys.
-Place the betty's behind walls, trees, etc.. This will catch the enemy by surprise as they won't be able to see the yellow tip.
-Place the betty's in a viewable area, that way you can see who is trying to blow them up or who has dying trying!
-Lastly, if you hear a betty explode run to it, this always means that someone blew it up.
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-Here is a Search and Destroy Strategy Thread:
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-Here is a Complete weapon, and perk listing with STATS:
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-Here are all the map layouts:
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Here is a set of tips from Hawkeye65x: (Thanks and Kudos to him)
Small Arms and Heavy Weapons
First off lets go over the different kinds of weapons and what their strength and weaknesses are.
Pistols:
This class of weapons include the M1911A1, P-38, Nambu, TT-33, and a S&W .357 Magnum. These weapons are nothing more than backups to your main weapon. If you like to snipe you will need to become a good pistol user as well seeing as it will be your only CQC weapon besides your knife. Pistols are quite useful if your main weapon has either run out of ammo or you don't have time to reload in a CQC situation. Pistols have an extremely short range due to their short barrels and pistol caliber ammo. They also have small magazine capacities the .357 Mag is the smallest with 6. They are pretty quick reloads, but then again on average they only hold 7 rounds. It will usually take about 4 shots to take someone down with a pistol unless you are using the .357 mag. The pistol has an firing rate of as fast as you can press the R1 button.
Helpful Tips: These are last ditch weapons only. You are better off picking up a dead mans weapon than running around with this. If you are a sniper you shouldn't be doing much running so you will be fine with a pistol. These weapons do not have attachments in this game so unsuppressed is all you have.
Sub-Machine Guns (SMG).
These weapons include the M1A1 Thompson, MP40, PPSh-41 and Type 100. They tend to have high rates of fire and moderate to above average damage. However they tend to be short range weapons seeing as they shoot pistol caliber rounds and because of their high rates of fire, SMGs tend to burn through ammo quickly and the magazines will go quick. SMGs are also rather loud, and produce a larger muzzleflash second only to LMGs. This will give away your position so avoid trying to take out targets at a greater distance. Suppressor attachments will help, however they will chop your already short range in half.
Helpful tips:Useful in close quarter combat (CQC) use on maps where there isn't a lot of open ground or where you need a lot of firepower fast. Bandoleer and Sight of Hand tend to be useful Perks when using a SMG as does Steady Aim. Bandoleer because of the greater amount of ammo and Sight of Hand because faster reloads are helpful when you are running into a lot of enemies in a tight space.
Bolt Action Rifles.
This class of weapons includes the M1903A3 Springfield, Arisaka Type 99, M1891 Mosin-Naggant, Kar-98K (K-98K), and the behemoth semi-auto PTRS-41 Antitank rifle.
Lets be honest this class should really have been called sniper rifles, but the only one that come standard issued with a scope is the Springfield. The rest you will have to unlock, to do this treat them as though they were sniper rifles even though you don't have a scope. Trust me running around a small map with a bolt rifle is asking to get slaughtered and will cause a whole lot of frustration and anger. These weapons have a slow rate of fire and at times it is excruciatingly slow. You might think that your soldier has a sever case of carphiltunnel syndrome. These are not run and gun styled weapons, even with the bayonet. Treat them as such and you will find yourself getting killed a lot with very little to show for it. This being said they have huge damage potential, especially with a scope attached. All of the weapons have 5 round magazines and fire bullets that are all roughly the same size except for the PTRS-41. M1903A3= 30-06 (7.62x63mm) Type 99=7.7x58mm K98K= 7.92x57mm Mosin Naggant 7.62x54mm and the PTRS-41 14.5x114mm.
Helpful Tips: I have yet to run into anyone who is good a running and gunning with a bolt rifle. They in my opinion should only be used as sniper rifles, scope or not. Getting the first 25 kills may be a bit challenging, but treat the weapon as though it had a scope on it. Hell, Iron sight sniping is not that hard, but it takes some getting used to but it is highly rewarding when you get good at it. The best sniper that ever lived used a M1891 Mosin Naggant without a scope, for most of his career and bagged 598 confirmed kills. His a Finnish man, not Russian I am not going to attempt to spell his name but Google Finnish Sniper and I am sure his name will pop up. Stopping Power will help you bring down the toughest foes when being used as a sniper rifle. Deep Impact is also helpful if you have foes hiding behind cover. Don't worry about using Iron Lungs, you can hold your breath long enough to kill one or two foes, and most of the time you can do it without having to hold your breath at all. Camouflage is also helpful if you find that you are continuing to drop people with one hit without stopping power.
Semi-Auto Battle Rifles.
You really get cheated with these weapons. The first 3 that you will unlock fire the same cartridge as their nations bolt action counterparts yet do less damage in game. They are better run and gun style weapons however, this is especially true for the Stg.44. These are also some of the most versatile weapons in the game. Consider these equal to the Assault rifle class in COD 4. In fact you have the first assault rifle ever fielded in the German Stg.44. They have magazine capacities ranging from 8-30 rounds and have fire rates that are as fast as you can press R1, except for the Stg.44 who's fire rate is equal to the MP-40. They make great DMR styled weapons once you have the scopes unlocked, this is most true for the M1C Garand. Sniper version of M1 Garand. Everyone of these Rifles has identical range, in reality this makes no sense seeing as the Stg.44 shoots an intermediate cartridge and the M1 Carbine shoots a hybrid light rifle/heavy pistol cartridge. *Side note: The M1 Carbine is the model of Carbine that we have in this game, the M1A1 is a Paratrooper model with a folding skeleton stock*.
Helpful Perks: This is the go anywhere do anything class. They can snipe, yet hold their own in CQC they are also capable of launching grenades which is helpful for taking out pesky snipers and LMG emplacements, bad against tanks though. Stopping Power will help you drop people in 2-3 hits most of the time. Like the bolts Deep Impact is helpful as well, it will allow you to punch through just about anything. DO NOT use Double Tap with these weapons, like the G3 and M14 in COD4 it is pointless because they go as fast as you can pull the trigger. Another thing I have found is that Steady Aim may help you if you do not have time to aim. I find that completing the Bayonet Specialist challenge is easiest with this type of weapon.
Machine Guns:
This class of weapons includes the Type 99, the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), the DP-28, MG-42, FG-42 and the Browning M1919A4. To be honest minus the BAR and the FG-42, accuracy is down right terrible with these guns. The bipod helps make up for this. These weapons are general built for support fire and holding a certain area down. The BAR and FG-42 are not truly Machine Guns as they are Automatic Rifles, there intended purpose was to provide a squad with large amounts of firepower while a Machine Gun would support a whole Platoon. Damage from these guns is rather high seeing as they all shoot the same caliber bullets as their bolt and semi-auto rifle brothers. Magazine capacities are all over the place with this class. The MG-42 and the Browning M1919A4 hold 100 rounds I believe, the DP-28 has a 48 round saucer mag, the Type 99 has a 30 round magazine and the BAR and FG-42 both have a meager 20 round magazine. Range is identical for all of these weapons, and they can shoot a good distance, the problem is trying to get the bullet to hit the target at that distance. Burst fire is the key with these guns, especially with the MG-42. Bursting the weapons make them more accurate and you only need a few well placed hits to take someone down with these guns. Let them rip on full auto and a good chunk of your bullets will miss. Put a bipod on these and lay down in a choke point, you are going to get a lot of quick kills with these, but be warned you are not very mobile once your bi-pod is deployed. This strategy works best when you are playing Headquarters, Sabotage, or Search and Destroy game modes.
Helpful Perks: Sight of Hand works wonders with the biped Machine Guns, either you will be reloading the small magazined machineguns a lot or reloading the time consuming belt feds. Either way its a win win.Wouldnt worry about stopping power, these guns put out so much firepower so quick you are fine without it. Bandoleer is nice if you are using the magazine styled MG's however if you have a belt fed one, wouldn't worry about it. Deep Impact works wonders as well if you are trying to lay down suppressive fire and kill enemies behind cover. Avoid using double tap unless you are using the BAR. You probably wont notice the difference on the MG-42, I really don't think you can make any gun with a single barrel shoot faster that 1200 rpm.
Shotguns:
Not much to say here. Damage is out the Wahoo with these things, but range and accuracy are almost nonexistent. Only use these on close quartered maps like Asylum and others along those lines. If you get caught in the open with a shotgun, all I can say is that I hope you are good with a pistol. Fire Rate is slow and slower, make sure you don't miss with the double barrel or you are dittled.
Helpful Perks: Shotguns are the hardest weapons to use in the game in my opinion their lack of range means you have to be sneaky and in a run and gun game that can be hard to do sometimes. Helpful perks with the M1898 Trenchgun are Double Tap and Steady Aim, Bandoleer isn't a bad idea either if you stay alive long enough, otherwise pack double nades or a Bazooka to give you some type of ranged weapon. I find Sight of Hand extremely helpful with the double barrel as is Steady Aim. Don't use Deep Impact with either of the shotguns and the Flamethrower is pointless seeing as it is short range only as well.
Helpful Pointers and Proper Manners
I was playing COD3 (yes, 3) last night for a bit. Got shot in the back as I was running with the enemy's flag. When I died, the guy who killed me decided he needed to do some squat thrusts (*ahem*) over my face. Checked the score and he was 1 kill, 7 deaths. I had a 2:1 KDR and was leading the game in points.
Rule #1: If you're getting schooled and you finally get a kill...check the scoreboard before you think you're all that.
Was playing COD4 today, hopped in a lobby and two guys, for no reason whatsoever, immediately said I should leave because I was "about to get smoked". I believe one was named "Gold*n_Troj*n" (I can't put his name). I never istigated anything...I think they just wanted to talk junk since I was the only other one with a mic. I was on a team of scrubs that just got their butt handed to them the game before, yet when I played with them, we beat them by 40+ points in Domination; I went 25-10, he went 10-25...I had about 386 points, Troj*n's teammate had like 83 (I didn't catch his K/D). Let's just say, I let 'em have it afterwards.
Rule #2: Don't talk junk if you can't back it up.
Rule #3: Don't talk junk to somebody you've never played against.
Was playing in Crash against a bunch of good players...they had us pinned at A. I eventually broke free (they were camping back alleys, so I really had to earn it) and when I'd try to capture a flag, I'd surround the entry points with claymores so they couldn't ambush me. I'd capture it, they'd eat the claymore. They whooped up on us, I'll admit that, but immediately afterwards, they whined about my claymores (yet it was okay for them to camp in buildings and shoot you in the back -- I bounced a frag off the ceiling to kill one of 'em -- that's always fun). So when we played in Bog, I didn't use a single claymore and went 50-12. He went like 12-25. I had more than 130 more points than anybody in the game and captured numerous flags, but we lost by 15. Then they proceeded to whine about how I used a silenced AK47 and how I "still lost". Yep, I did...and I want to win more than anybody, but I did more than the lion's share.
Rule #4: If you're going to talk junk and whine, prepare to get owned the next game. And when you get owned, don't whine about how I schooled you in a different way as well. I'm not going to use a pea shooter against you.
Any suggestions are welcomed.
CONCLUSION:
In conclusion, please use these tips, as they will surely help you succeed in getting better, making more friends, making clans, etc...
Now that you have all the info you need, try for a clan or making your k/d ratio that much better. If you ever need anything just contact me or anyone else who you look up to.
Call of duty is a great game, and it only gets better when there is nice people out there,
The only newbs are the ones who don’t follow this guide
If I forgot anything or if there is anything to add, let me know
PSN: SAFT93
12-28-2008 11:14 PM
12-28-2008 11:16 PM
12-29-2008 01:07 AM
12-29-2008 05:12 AM
12-29-2008 06:06 AM
pollyann wrote:
if only everyone did this...i wish they did
I'll give the OP Kudos if it actually starts working...
12-29-2008 07:34 AM
12-29-2008 09:53 AM
I really liked your thread, specially the mic parts. kudos to you.
12-29-2008 10:03 AM
12-29-2008 10:10 AM