PSAS: Battle Royale™
03 Aug 2013

Game Mechanics: Community Fall Patch Wishlist

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This is a thread where we can specifically talk about any of the game's mechanics and how they should be changed. This includes anything from what should be the competitive standard for this game (Balanced for FFA, 2v2, or 1v1? Timed, Kill Limit, or Stock?) to of course the hot topic of Kill confirms.

 

I'll start off with my own opinions:

 

 

1) Twitch Attacks (example: Dante's guns): Can no longer be blocked, countered, absorbed or reflected:


Not only are twitch reactions by nature low-AP gainers, but they also cause no hitstun! That's why spamming them isn't as big of a problem: they take away none of your dodging options, so they're extremely easy to avoid. They are very low reward, and should be low risk. But their ability to be countered makes many of these twitch attacks high risk because they're extremely punishable! Opponents, instead of moving away from my twitch attacks, could actually move toward them, so that they can use them against me for high reward.

 

For example, if I throw ST's molotov, which is 5 AP per hit, against Sly, he just can run into it, counter, and instantly be teleported behind me (even from the other side of the stage) and either steal 40 AP from me or KC me. But just one Molotov, if it burned a person standing still for its full 2.5 second duration (very unlikely in FFA), only gets me 25 AP. And obviously not a kill, either.

 

Or how about Dante, whose entire triangle button is reserved for twitch reactions? Against someone like Kratos, I wouldn't dare use my pistols while we're both grounded, because he could just press Circle during any point of my barrage of bullets (10 AP max per button press), counter me with a 20 AP projectile, and crumple me for a free combo or KC.

 

Twitch attacks are currently high risk/ low reward because of these things.Taking away their ability to be countered and blocked would make them low risk/ low reward, as they should be. Twitch attacks being blockable just seems unnecessary considering how easy many of them are to avoid or be destroyed, so that should be removed as well. Players should be punished for standing still blocking a move that won't hinder their defense whatsoever.

 

 

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2) Make the 30% AP bonus that is awarded for hitting multiple people with one hit also be awarded when the attack is blocked. Currently, the 50% block penalty and the 30% multi-hit bonus only both activate if two or more people are hit in the exact same frame. If they are hit during different frames of the same attack, the 30% bonus won't activate. This leads to opponents gaining more AP off of blocking opponents than standing opponents with the multi-hit bonus. This should be fixed.

 

This topic's way too deep to go into in this small space. It needed an entire thread dedicated to it, so that's what I did. I explained in detail how I found this out in this thread (screenshots included). It's a pretty serious problem though, SSM, so please consider fixing it.

 

 

 

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3) Counters: [1] Should no longer have any effect on guard break attacks. [2] Opponents being countered no longer gain 50% of their attack's AP. They should earn 0 AP when they are countered. [3] Remove any counter Kill confirms (Sly Cooper, Kratos with projectile, Raiden). [4] Certain projectiles (detailed list below) should be able to be correclty reflected by Nariko's & Kratos' counters (as well as things like PaRappa's skateboard):

 

[1] Guard break attacks shouldn't even need an explanation. You have to make a huge time commitment to use them, so they are obviously very easy to see coming. Using charged attacks against a character who can counter (or even Counter KC, like Raiden) is an extremely easy punish. It simply makes no sense at all that charged attacks can break guard, but are not able to go through counters. Using a charged attack against someone countering should have the same hit reaction as hitting an idle opponent with a charged attack, not a guard break (otherwise, SSM would have to create a guard break animation for Sly, which I'm sure they'd rather avoid doing). SSM, it seems you already agree with this way of thinking generally, since counters cannot be used against charged attacks in your very own God of War Ascension. It would be greatly appreciated if you brought this logic over to PSASBR!

 

 

[2] Currently, characters are programmed to still gain half of their move's AP gain if they are countered as they use it. For example, if I use an attack that causes 20 AP on Kratos, but he counters me, then I will still gain 10 AP even though I got countered, just like a block. This doesn't make much sense to me: this doesn't give counters enough of a reason to be used over blocks. The point of a block is to limit your opponent's AP gain while giving you openings to punish. Right now...counters only do almost the exact same thing: limit opponent's AP gain by half, but the punish is more immediate. Given how risky counters are on whiff, I think they should be much more useful than just barely being more powerful than blocks. So to fix this, opponents should no longer gain AP when countered. This would give players more reason to use their counters over blocks in certain situations. For example, if my opponent's closing in on a Level 3, I can either block to make his moves only gain half AP and try to look for an opening, or I can do the riskier (but more effective) thing and try a counter, which, if I'm successful, will make his attack gain NO AP and will allow me a free punish via grab or combo. Of course if I whiff then it's lights out for me. That's some very interesting risk v reward gameplay.

 

[3] I understand that counters are supposed to be free punish tools, but not for KC's. You should absolutely be awarded for making a good read on someone with an opportunity for a long combo, but not an instant kill, because doing a counter is just as quick as an easy, braindead Kill confirm. Sly Cooper's counter is especially out of control: able to reflect projectiles from anywhere on the map for a Level 1 confirm? No way. If this was supposed to be an intended mechanic, why don't Dante's, Nariko's, or Heihachi's counters lead to confirms? It would be best if counter KC's were just taken out entirely by slightly increasing their recovery.

 

[4] It seems that Nariko's and Kratos' counters work differently in recognizing what's a projectile and what's not. Kratos' is much more consistent and better at this task, but there are some things that even Kratos doesn't recognize as a projectile. Nariko seems to recognize a ton of projectile attacks as melee attacks for some reason. Here's a list of moves that currently can't be reflected by Nariko or Kratos (or both) (updated as more are found)

 

  • -Sir Daniel's Axe Throw: Kratos reflects it, Nariko doesn't. She treats it like a melee attack
  • -Dante's Down Circle: Kratos reflects it, Nariko does not
  • -Spike's Bananarang :Neither can reflect this: they actually get punished for it. Cole can't absorb it either.
  • -Ratchet's Forward Square: Neither can reflect.
  • - Ratchet's Sniper (Neut Circle) : Kratos can reflect. For Nariko, attack just "whiffs" when it connects with her counter. No AP is gained for opponent nor Nariko. Same "whiff" happens when Isaac tries to reflect.
  • - Radec's Sniper (F Triangle) : Kratos can reflect. For Nariko, same "whiff" effect for Ratchet's sniper.
  • - Drake's magnum (F Triangle): Kratos can reflect. For Nariko, "whiff" effect described above.
  • - Isaac's Neutral Circle (bouncing bola): Kratos can reflect. Nariko cannot.
  • - Isaac's Buzz Saw: Neither can reflect. However, Kratos' counter does make the buzz saw disappear. Nariko's does not: she gets punished upon countering it. 
  • - Jak's F Circle: Kratos can reflect, Nariko cannot
  • - Kratos' Air D Circle: cannot be countered/deflected at all. 
  • - Kat's Neut Circle (Debris): Kratos can reflect it, Nariko cannot.
  • - Big Daddy's Up Circle (Tornado plasmid): Neither can reflect Both counter it like a melee attack.
  • - Nariko's Forward Circle: Nariko can reflect, but Kratos cannot.

Items:

  • - Hedgehog Grenade: The grenade itself can't be reflected by either (both treat it as a melee attack, and both are punished by the Hedgehog spikes as a result). Although they can both reflect individual hedgehog spikes, this should be changed so they can actually reflect the grenade itself. This would especially be helpful for Nariko, who will be able to use someone's entire hedgehog against them instead of just one spike. IMO, only epic items like the Fusion Bomb should be 100% non-reflectable.
  • - LR3 Railgun: Kratos can reflect, Nariko cannot (she treats it like a melee). This should change so that both can reflect.

 

 

The properties of these moves should be changed so that both Nariko and Kratos can reflect them properly.

 

Also, while we're on the subject of Kratos' counter, it currently has the ability to both absorb any projectile's AP and produce a reflected blast that causes 20 AP. This should be fixed: no other reflective attack in the game acts like this, and Kratos already produces a consistent 20 AP blast off of any projectile, so he shouldn't absorb the projectile's AP too. More details in the OP of the  Kratos thread.

 

 

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 4) Make eject rolls caused by attacks behave the same way eject rolls caused by Forward Throws: if the victim is at the edge of a platform right when the eject-causing attack hits, then the victim falls off. If the victim is not at the edge when this attack hits, then the victim remains rolling on the platform:

 

This is a small fix, but I can't help but notice the discrepancy between eject roll throws and eject roll attacks. This is especially a problem for people like Sweet Tooth, who have tremendous oki game on small platforms because of this property, or Ratchet, who has a rather easy Level 1 setup because of this. This small change wouldn't be devastating, and it wouldn't exactly eliminate the two things I mentioned above. Sweet Tooths would just have to be more mindful of spacing before throwing out his Square Square combo (causes eject roll). And Ratchet would no longer be able to do his Level 1 setup directly next to a wall; he'd have to master getting opponents in that medium-range sweet spot, making the setup slightly more difficult to perform (as any Level 1 setup should be).  Ejects, since they give the opponent a lot of AP, are typically meant to get the opponent to safety (which is evident by the large amount of invincibility frames), and the fact that you can get eject rolled off a ledge from throws shows that. However, attacks currently don't eject roll you off of ledges, which I think should be addressed for consistency (and more interesting gameplay, to be honest).

 

 

 

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5) Add risk/reward to Grabbing system instead of having all grabs eject same amount of AP:

 

This idea was discussed in a thread a while back. Basically, it is very strange how this game gives the same AP reward (15%) for all 3 types of grab, when some are obviously more preferable to others (for example, what's the point in using a flatten when you can either use an Up throw to combo or a side throw to keep you safe for the same reward?) Basically the gist of the idea would be that safer throws grant you less AP, and riskier throws grant you more AP. This is what I think should be the breakdown after much deliberation (slight alteration of what I posted in the linked thread).

 

1) Side Throws (usually ejects) = lowest AP penalty (maybe 8-10%). Ejects throw enemies to safety, making these throws very low risk for the player. Therefore there should be low reward.

 

2) Up Throws (launches or bounces) = medium AP penalty (12-13%)Many up throws are able to be comboed off of, maybe even leading to an AP burst, so there's potential for a pretty sizeable reward. However, even if you don't choose to combo, you still have a pretty sizeable AP orb reward, but are at decent risk of your opponent  punishing you with a combo or Super while you try to collect them. Also, if you do choose to combo, it will most likely result in an air combo, which means you won't be able to pick up the large sum of free orbs on the ground. In a FFA environment, that means another player could just swoop in and steal a ton of those AP orbs. All of these things add up to medium reward for medium risk, and therefore medium AP penalty.

 

 3) Down Throws (flattens) = largest AP penalty (15%). Flattens cannot be comboed off of, but your opponent is still in your immediate vicinity as you collect the large sum of orbs, meaning you're still at a medium risk of being punished on wakeup by a combo or Super (especially an L2 like E.Cole's or Parappa's). The large amount of orbs could also attract other players in a FFA much more than an Up or Side throw would. So even though you face a high reward of AP orbs, you face the high risk of leaving yourself exposed to Supers and potentially giving your opponent a huge scoring lead from other opponents.  So high risk, high reward for this throw.

 

 I think this would be a much better system than the current throwing system now. Plus standardizing all characters to have one throw that launches/bounces, one that flattens, and one that ejects would help bring consistency to the entire cast. It's very strange that some characters have two eject throws and no bounces (Nariko) or 2 bounce/lift throws but no flattens (Evil Cole, Big Daddy).

 

 

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6) All explosive land mines (Sweet Tooth, Isaac, Sly Cooper) that are thrown down while the character is airborne should instantly explode upon contact with the ground. Mines should onlybe able to be "placed" on the ground while the character himself is grounded. Additionally, these three moves should have a slight increase in ground startup.

 

This is one of the things that not only defies logic, but also gives players in this game a somewhat unfair advantage. Placing a mine while grounded requires a certain degree of commitment, which is the risk you must face in return for the reward of extra defense you get with this move. That's the same way it is for other competitive games: in shooters, you often have to select a land explosive and then place it, leaving you completely open for an opponent to shoot you since you do not have your gun out to shoot back. On the ground in PSASBR, it's a fair balance of risk vs reward: you risk being fairly vulnerbale for the tremendous spase control you receive.

 

However, being able to safely throw a mine while airborne completely eliminates that risk. You're allowed to gain the tremendous amount of space control that mines bring without experiencing the risk of being locked in an unsafe animation on the ground. If you're allowed to have this much reward with no risk in the air, why would you ever use the ground version? It's already bad enough that you can replace the mine any time you want, unlike other competitive games where you have a limited number of mines, so you're more inclined to commit to where you place them. Heck, even Snake in Brawl can only plant his mine while grounded: the C4 he can drop from the air has to be detonated manually, which leaves him vulnerable when he does so. Plus his ground mine has an extremely long startup, making you commit more to the mine's location instead of constantly replacing it.

 

I recently played an Isaac player online in a FFA who had a little more than a Level 2 in his Super bar. Surprisingly, the other 3 players in the match decided to try to chase him down to grab him to prevent L3. Yet all this Isaac did was jump around and place his mine from the air. He didn't have to worry about people dodging the mine as he dropped it: if he stayed close to the mine, he knew he would capitalize off of his mine no matter what his opponents did. If they got hit, that's free 20 AP for him. If they blocked, that's 10 AP and enough blockstun for him to get away and place more mines. If they destroyed it, no biggie: you don't get AP for destroying mines. If they countered it, again, free 10 AP and mine explosions cannot be reflected. And because of the space control, opponents weren't capable of catching him when he landed, or they'd risk running into the mine. Needless to say, he had no problem getting his L3 and destroying us all.

 

That's why this change should happen. Placing a mine from the air has significantly less risk, so it should not have the same reward as placing it on the ground does. "Trap" ground mines already account for this in this game: Sackboy's electric panel floats slowly to the ground making it highly predictable. Big Daddy's Down Circle ice trap has a small delay before it activates after being "dropped" from the air. Same for Evil Cole's Down Circle. Spike's Neut Triangle also deserves a mention: since it's a manual detonation, Spike actually cannot move while his attack is slowly floating towards the ground (unless he detonates it). It also floats slowly to the ground before becoming active.

 

This "slow floating" effect wouldn't make sense for explosive mines, so instead they should just explode on impact as soon as they hit the ground if the character is airborne when throwing it down. It would give these characters a means of dealing with people directly below them, but they'd have to place the mine while grounded to get the full space controlling effect. Fat Princess' bomb is fine because it doesn't explode as soon as it is placed, but Sly's, Isaac's, and Sweet Tooth's should receive the change proposed. I also think these three moves deserve a bit more startup so they cannot be so freely used to link combos and pose more risk to the player for the space-controlling reward they bring, but that's not as big an issue as air mines being as risk free as they are now.

 

 

 

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7)  Make controls for "Wall-sticking" moves (The 2 Coles, Nariko, Raiden) more intuitive (hold X to stick to wall instead of direction, release X to do Nariko or Raiden Long jump)

 

There's a strange clunkiness built into the controls for certain characters that are able to stick to a wall. Here's what you do:

 

1) Jump towards the wall (press X)

2) Hold down both X and the direction of the wall you're trying to stick to (left or right). 

3) Hold down the directional button to keep you stuck to the wall. You can release X. 

4) Perform desired action (either running up wall w/ Raiden or aiming w/ the 2 Coles) with the directional buttons that you're already holding down in one direction...

5) Press X again to either cancel (2 coles) or do a long jump (nariko, Raiden). If you hold down the direction for too long you just drop.

 

For D-pad users like me, performing step 4 is very clunky with characters like Evil Cole where you're trying to aim & shoot. I have to awkwardly hold down left while trying to lean by thumb to press up or down to aim. Why not just make a simple change to step 3: you hold down X to stick to the wall instead of the directional button? This allows you to aim an attack or run up walls in a much more intuitive way for both analog and D-pad users, because your hand will be free to use either d-pad or stick instead of awkwardly trying to aim while holding down one direction. For Nariko & Raiden, simply release X to do the long jump. Holding X for too long would still result in a simple drop. This would be a much more intuitive control system for this maneuver especially for a Dpad user like me, so I'd love to see this implemented.

 

 

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8)  Add Timer to Kill Limit/Stock, and add a "Share Stock" system for 2v2 Stock games 

 

Stock & Kill Limit matches can simply lasts forever, and that's most likely one of the reasons why many people don't see Stock in this game having much tournament potential. Go watch any match that occured at EVO this year and see if you can spot one that didn't have a timer. Simply put, these two modes need non-intrusive timer to keep them from dragging on forever Nothing too obtrusive (should be longer than 3 minutes). Looks like SuperBot has already investigated this idea , so it would be great for SSM to pick up where they left off.

 

Also, the Share Stock system is, imo, a much needed addition to 2v2 Stock games in PSASBR. Let's face it; there's simply nothing fun about getting eliminated and being forced to watch others play a match, especially when you have no idea how long that match will last. The share stock system would help remedy that a little bit. Personally I always preferred Timed and Kill Limit because all players were fighting for the entire match, but adding share stock along with a timer would definitely make this a mode more fun for all players. It would at the very least make that final stretch where it's only a 1v1 or 2v1 a little more bearable to watch.

 

 

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9)  Certain "Delayed Eject-causing Projectiles" (DEP, for short): if a victim's hit by a DEP from the front, he/she should always eject backwards (direction opposite victim was facing). If hit from the back, he/she should always eject forward (direction victim was facing). Attacker's location relative to the victim after the attack should have no influence.

 

A few characters in this game have DEP's that seem to be coded specifically to get the victim away from you. Two very good examples are Cole's Up Triangle (Guided Version) and Radec's Neut Circle. Take both of these characters into practice mode against an opponent. You facing left, him facing right.

 

If you throw Coles Up Triangle into the air, then jump or slide behind an opponent, and then guide the missile to hit him, you'll find that even though the opponent was facing left, he will actually fly forwards to the left instead of flying backwards to the right like he normally should. Changing his direction doesn't solve the problem: the victim will always fly in the direction away from Cole. The same is true for Radec's Neutral Circle: tag someone facing left with it from the front, and you would expect that they will fly backwards to the right. But once again, you'll find that if you simply tag the victim & jump to the other side of him (while he is still facing left), the victim will automatically fly forwards to the left. Not only does this look inconsistent with the animation, but it also puts an unnecessary bottleneck on possible 2v2 combos. Same is true for tagging an opponent from the back: they are always programmed to eject away from you.

 

This pointlessly restricts the creativity of team combos (and even some 1v1 combos), so a simple solution would be to make the knockback be victim-dependent, not attacker dependent. If the victim's hit with a DEP from the front, he/she should always fly backwards. If facing left, he/she ejects right. Vice versca for other direction. Use Good Cole's Forward Triangle as an example of how it should be done: the opponent always flips backward, and Cole's position relative to the victim has no influence on the attack. This would greatly expand 2v2 combo potential and even give some characters like Radec a chance at some better 1v1 combo potential.

 

This should also be true for when opponents are hit from the back: They should always fly forwards when hit with DEP's from the back.  So if Cole's guided missile hit's an opponet's back, he should flly forward. And if Radec tags an enemy while his back is turned, the enemy should fly forward when the explosion happens, not backwards. The only way to get the opponent to fly forwards toward Radec is if the opponent himself turns around or another attacker forces him to. This would prevent unfair 2v2 combos that involve Cole or Radec using these moves to automatically bring a victim that their partner is comboing over to them. The attacker should have to make the effort to get behind the opponent after the DEP has been initiated. And most importantly, it would once and for all get rid of the strange animation where an opponent would fly backwards when he was hit with an eject from behind.

 

 

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 10) Players are no longer able to pick up AP orbs while performing any defensive option (blocking, rolling, air dodging, wakeup & wakeup roll, Heihachi's wave-dashing) or have invincibility frames active (Infinite Avoidance, spawn invincibility, , etc.):

 

This is something that's irked me from the very beginning. AP orbs are obviously supposed to be a baiting tool, and baiting tool implies that the opponent will be vulnerable in some way from taking the bait. However, this is not true at all for picking up AP orbs. Players can simply dodge roll into them to get the reward without any risk to them (low risk, high reward).  Parappa can set his boombox down and just hold down block to pick up the AP orbs, forcing anyone who is trying to get him with projectiles to come in closer, which is Parappa's comfort zone. That presents very minimal risk to Parappa for high reward. And obviously Heihachi has his Dreamscape exploit, where he can just activate Raijin, go into the poison gas hold down block to maximize his AP gain and cheat the system to get a quick Level 3. I shouldn't even have to explain why that one is ridiculous.

 

Now items? THEY are a fantastic baiting tool, because you know the person who is about to pick it up will be vulnerable while doing so. You're not able to just "roll" into items to pick them up; you have to committ to their long pickup animation (high risk) for the large amount of power you get (high reward). AP orbs currently do not function this way; you can just dodge roll into them at your heart's content and reap the rewards without fear of getting punished. There's no reason for someone to be rewarded so highly for something that poses no risk to them. Players should have to intelligently find ways to minimize their risks while picking up orbs, like using the 2 Cole's F Square grinds, Dante's angel dash, or Drake's Up Circle (I wonder if Drake players remember that this move exists.). That would make for much more interesting baiting and risk vs reward gameplay.

 

 

 

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11) Bring more parity to air and ground game by reducing overall characters' air-game effectiveness (perhaps an increase in the 12-frame landing lag implemented in last patch). Additionally, SSM could explore making characters drop some AP orbs when they're AP bursted to make players more mindful of their defense and to slightly discourage air-camping.

 

This one doesn't really need much of an explanation. Almost all characters in this game have a significant tendency to stay in the air vs the ground, most likely because of the number of air attacks with cancelled landing recovery. One of SuperBot's combat designers even said that though SuperBot had seen this trend coming pre-release, they did not predict it would be as bad as it is now. That was why the 12 frames of landing lag was implemented in the last patch. However, 12 frames seems not to have done much, and some characters (like Sly Cooper) didn't even get affected by the landing lag at all. Some characters like Good Cole in particular are able to highly capitalize on this with his myriad if air to ground KC's, leaving characters that are supposed to have a strong ground game (Heihachi, Sir Daniel) very disadvantaged. Perhaps 12 frames wasn't enough, so it should be bumped up slightly to make up for this. Either way, this is something that Sony Santa Monica should address to bring more interesting gameplay to PSASBR, because, as you can probably gather from the two links posted above, jump-fests are the complete opposite of interesting.

 

Part 2 of this idea would be a great step in the right direction to discourage the jump-fest we have now. Seems like not enough people care enough about their defense in this game, and honestly I can't blame them when air-camping is such an effective way to be offensive while being relatively safe. So it would be interesting to see the 15% AP penalty from grabs also apply to AP bursts. The idea isn't really to reward the attacker; its to punish the victim's poor defense and reinforce to the player that defense does matter in this game. Plus if you're going up against certain characters like Kat, you'll be much less like to jump-spam around her since she has ridiculously good bursts to punish air-campers. However this change would be more offective for FFA & 2v2; players would be more likely to gang up on someone approaching a Level 3. This would make it fair for all characters in the game; not all characters can perform AP burst combos on their own, but they are all capable of doing team bursts. If this change means that the infinite avoidance reward (30 AP) might have to be reduced to 20-25 AP, then so be it.

 

 

 

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12) Attackers should be awarded a small amount of AP (5-10 AP) when their opponents wall-bounce from their attack. This 5-10 AP should NOT count towards AP Burst/Infinite Avoidance during combos. This change would be to reward players who start finding and using situational wall-bounce combos on stages instead of using safe, mid-screen AP Bursts that work on any stage.

 

Seems to me that although wall combos are possible in this game, there isn't really much incentive to go for them. They're highly situational and generally don't give any more AP than reliable mid-screen AP bursts. Combo-heavy fighters like Tekken are very different: when you hit someone into a wall, they lose a little bit of health and you're given an opportunity for follow up combos. Therefore, wall bounces are encouraged in order to get high reward combos in this game, and I think PSASBR could learn from that concept. There are tons of stages in this game with unique, stage-specific tech waiting to be explored. But nobody's going to bother using these combos over their safe, mid screen bursts if they have no incentive to. Players who go for these extremely risky & situational combos in PSASBR should be rewarded for actually being able to pull them off in the heat of battle. This kind of plays into the whole general idea of PSASBR's gameplay: high risk (situational combos) should yield high reward (more AP), the same way mastering hard-to-land Level 1 supers (high risk) will get you more kills (high reward) than just going for Level 3's (low risk, lower reward).

 

So what I had in mind was this: what if players were awarded a small amount of AP (maybe 5-10) every time their opponent wall-bounced from their attack, similar to the way your opponent loses a small amount of health in Tekken from a wallbounce? Just to stop this from messing up current combo tech, I think it would be best if this 5-10 AP didn't count towards Infinite Avoidance (similar to twitch attacks). That way, any current wallbounce combos would still work (they wouldn't burst pre-maturely). In fact, they'd reward even more AP than they do now, thanks to the extra wallbounce AP I'm proposing. I think this would greatly encourage players to explore & find new tech with their characters on all the stages in the game. It's such a shame to see such wasted potential with the stages we have: what's the point in making stages with so many intricate wall-bounce & platform combo opportunities if players have no incentive to actually use them?

 

 

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13) Adjust extremely easy Level 1 confirms (examples listed below) to be much harder to land and/or remove a few of them altogether. Can be done without breaking combo potential by deactivating Level 1 Super button until a certain frame has passed (enough to forbid Level 1 Supers to be used while opponent is in hitstun from your attack). Also remove Level 1 Touches of Death.

 

Saved the most controversial one for last, but the extremely easy Level 1 KC's need to be removed from the game for a number of reasons. Firstly, they go against the philosophy behind the Super system. Level 1 supers are supposed to high risk & high reward, i.e very hard to land, but if you do you get a very inexpensive kill. But with super easy, reliable KC's they're suddenly low risk/high reward. That's the problem: this Super system already gives the advantage to players who land their risky Level 1 Supers as often as possible vs people who go for Level 3's all the time (as Omar Kendall himself said at E3 last year). What balances this out is the fact that L1's are very risky & difficult to land, but making Level 1's as easy and risk-free as they are to land via KC's breaks the system.  

 

Additionally, very easy KC's break the natural pace that every fighting game has, which is for players to gradually go from a highly offensive game to a highly defensive game as health bars drop. With Easy KC's, the change is abrubt; people begin playing very defensively when their opponent only has a Level 1 Super. Compare it to traditional fighters: constantly trying to avoid easy KC's is equivalent to playing extremely defensively with a 4/5 full life bar. That's completely irrational: having a nearly full life bar allows you to take risks with your offense and not worry quite as much about defense. So the same mentality should carry over to PSASBR when your opponent only has a Level 1, the hardest type of Super to land in the game. Even SuperBot themselves have said that the fighting game flow that health bars bring is still very much alive in PSASBR, so the same mentalities behind health bars still apply to PSASBR.

 

There's no problem with extremely easy Level 2 KC's though: they are higher in cost and much less risky than L1's, so there's not an imbalance there. Plus in a FFA situation, using a L2 KC for just one kill is simply bad meter management anyway. But you don't have to take my word for it: I'm just echoing SuperBot's own words.

 

The L1 KC problem could be solved by simply deactivating the Super button while your opponent is in hitstun from your own attack. SuperBot's done this before, when they in their last patch made this change: "Characters have been standardized to not be able to Super until frame 12 after landing during an air attack." The same could simply be applied to all attacks (ground or air) that induce extremely easy KC's: just extend this restriction to a higher frame number (30 or 40) for them. And just like that, problem solved: easy L1 KC's are gone, but combo potential is left completely untouched. And this would not effect team Level 1 confirms in 2v2, which I'm completely fine with. Your partner would be able to kill an opponent that you yourself put in hitstun immediately. Even though the Super restrict option would be a nice way to remove a bunch of confirms at once, I think that should absolutely be a last resort. Plus I don't actually think a lot of confirms necessarily need to be removed entirely; just adjusted heavily.

 

Just to make it clear: not all L1 KC's are bad: only the extremely easy ones are. To quote Maj, one of this game's combat designers, L2's should be "easily comboable" but Level 1 kill confirms should require "a difficult, risky, situational, or otherwise impractical setup(Source).  Generally speaking, KC's that require certain platforms on certain maps, wall bounces, or confirms that rely on you landing a delayed attack are all completely fine, because they fall under Maj's description very well. 

 

Extremely easy kill confirms like the examples I'll list below do not fit this description. They are reliable and work in almost any situation: that's why they should be adjusted/removed. That way, only the extremely hard & impractical KC's would remain. At least that would be more consistent with SuperBot's original design philosophy, instead of having these incredibly easy KC's that many players just spam until they land it due to how safe and risk-free they are. You might argue that this isn't as big of a problem in 1v1 when you only have to focus on one opponent, but the developers have said multiple times that 1v1 was the absolute lowest priority for balance in this game. So if removing some KC's would "destroy" some 1v1 matchups, that shouldn't be a huge issue since that's not this game's focus. Thats another thing many pro-KC users have been saying: many seem to think that comboing into Supers is an "essential" part of the game, and that the mind-game for building meter and landing supers are the same thing because of L1 confirms, instead of them being two separate metas. However, this has actually been against SuperBot's design philosophy from the very beginning. And I'll let Seth Killian explain to you why.

 

SSM, you probably have an idea of which KC's are okay and which aren't, and hopefully my list looks similar to yours, with telemetry data to back them up. First I'll list some KC's that I think are absolutely fine the way the are now:

 

 

 

KC's that are fine and should stay in the game:

 

 

 * Dante's Air F Square x3 --> Level 1:

  • -(Impractical) Requires Dante to begin the F Square sequence at the very top of his jump so the final hit is not cancelled upon landing. Makes this very easily telegraphed to opponents.
  • - (Impractical) First hit must whiff, or else Dante will remain stationary in the air instead of falling down.
  • - (Risky) Dante is completely incapable of cancelling into triangle while locked in this string: he is guaranteed to fall straight down if he performs it (or even if he performs just the first F Square). Leaves him very open to setups and Supers.

 

* Drake Barrel (Neut Circle) explosion & wall-bounce Level 1 confirm:

  • - Situational, requires a wall
  • Precise timing: Drake must catch opponent with barrel during its explosion, meaning he can't catch someone at close range, and can't be disturbed by other attacks while waiting for barrel to explode.
  • - Delayed attack: barrel can be destroyed by opponent or other opponents, stage hazards, etc.
  • - Precise distance for Drake: if Drake's too close to the wall the opponent will fly over his head, preventing the confirm.
  • - Precise distance for opponent: If opponent is too far from wall during explosion, he/she'll be at too high a height for Drake's L1 to reach. Also, won't have enough momentum to wall bounce back far enough into Drake's L1.


Evil Cole's Down Circle into Level 1:

  • Oil Spike has a little bit of startup, so it can't really be used mid-combo, so E Cole has to really bait his opponent to it via oki or general spacing traps. 
  • - Startup prevents E.Cole from running up to someone and immediately using it. Oil lingers on ground for a bit before catching opponent, giving him chance to dodge.
  • - Cole has to be at specific distance to land confirm since oil lets go of opponent quickly, so he has to stay within range of the trap to land the confirm. Limits his max AP potential since E. Cole's best at mid-long range but only okay up close.
  • - Oil Spike does not remain on the battlefield forever. It disappears after a few seconds, preventing E.Cole from just mine camping like Sackboy and Isaac, even though he has a good amount of ranged attacks. Adds an extra degree of risk to this KC; the Spike doesn't protect E.Cole forever.
  • -All of these properties make this a risky & difficult confirm to pull off, and that's why it shouldn't be removed.

* Heihachi's Fully Charged Down Circle -> Square -> Level 1

  • (Risky) Heihachi must stand still and charge the Raijin stance before being able to do the punch with no armor, leaving him open to attack. He currently does not have the ability to dodge roll or jump cancel the charge, like most charged attacks in this game do (I think he should have this buffed).
  • - Requires grounded opponent: hitting air opponent causes eject tornado.
  • This confirm is fine apart from one thing: right now, Heihachi actually can cancel into Square very quickly after beginning charge for the KC. This should be slowed down (as in, Heihachi has to charge for a longer period of time before being able to use the punch. With the proposed buff above to make the charge cancellable by jump or roll, this sounds more than reasonable).

Jak's air D Circle -> air U Triangle -> Level 1confirm
  • - Very risky; Jak needs to be falling towards and facing away from a grounded opponent right next to him.
  • - Requires that air down circle blast makes opponent flip backwards towards Jak, so attack has to be launched at specific height. Too high, and opponent flips forward out of range for a KC. Too low, and air U Triangle follow up will have too much recovery for KC to work.
  • - Air Up triangle has to be shot at specific height so that Jak has an early recovery cancel upon landing, allowing for him to KC. If this move is done at too low a height, Jak will land & air version's recovery will continue into ground version's, preventing the KC.  (Impractical)
  • - Situational: doesn't work on small characters like Sackboy or Toro.

* Kratos Fully charged D Circle -> Level 1 confirm:

  • - Risky! Kratos must committ to the full charge of the head to get the crumple reaction, standing there defenseless with no armor, and fully open to attack or Super.
  • - If he chooses to jump or roll cancel out of it, he forfeits the chance to confirm
  • - Requires grounded opponent; air opponents are ejected.

Ratchet F Circle -> Level 1:

  • - Very difficult to pull off: Agents of Doom have large startup time and move very slowly, making them easily telegraphed to opponent.
  • - Delayed attack: Agents of Doom easily dodged or destroyed by opponents.
  • - Very difficult to hit opponents in the air because of tiny hitboxes.

 

Sackboy's Cake Mine (Neutral Circle) -> Level 1

  • - Delayed attack confirm: Long recovery on both air and ground versions prevents this from being a KC as soon as Sackboy launches it, but can be used as a trap. So if an enemy runs into a placed cake mine, he/she buttdrops. If Sackboy's close enough, he can KC off of that.
  • - Cake mine disappears after 5 seconds. So Sackboy cannot camp around cake mine for entire match; has to place new ones to land his KC.
  • - (Risky) Very specific positioning: Sackboy's a long range character, but has to be up close to his opponent if he/she hits the Cake mine in order to KC. Way outside Sackboy's comfort zone. 
  • - (Difficult) Can only KC if the opponent hits a planted mine. Sackboy has to lure an opponent into a mine, not just directly place one on him/her for a KC.
  • - (Situational) can be placed on a wall for a KC (but not the instant Sackboy launches the cake: enemy must run into it)
  • - Air Electric Panel (air D Circle) would be a completely fine KC if it had same recovery as ground version (so it could not KC as soon as Sackboy pulls it out) and had a timer similar to Sackboy's Cake mine or Evil Cole's oil spike.

* Toro Ground Down Square -> Level 1 and partial charge Neut Triangle (Ground or Air) -> Level 1

  • - (Impractical) Down Square has 2 sweeps: first one towards opponent & second swipe away from him/her. Toro cannot KC off of this move if the first strike hits the opponent: only if the second swipe hits can he KC. So it basically means Toro must, while standing close to someone, first swipe away from that opponent, and then towards him/her to get the KC. Basically the same as a forward move with tons of startup, but a little safer from behind.
  • - (Risky) Intentionally whiffing first swipe leaves Toro fairly open to attack or Super
  • - Different directions of swipe, infinite avoidance system, and opponent knockback means this move cannot be spammed over and over again against a player in front of Toro.
  • - (Risky) Toro must stand still while charging Neut Triangle in order to get the buttdrop that will allow for L1 KC.
  • - Timing is precise: don't charge it long enough, blast causes a light rxn instead of buttdrop, so no KC. Charge it too long, blast becomes eject tornado, so no KC.
  • - Air version works equally well as ground version instead of greatly outlcassing it like other unbalanced KC's.
  • - Charge can be cancelled out of by roll or jump, but that will forfeit the attack & the KC.

 

 

 And now here are some KC's that either need adjusting or should be removed from the game entirely:

 


 

KC's that need adjusting or removal:

 

* Cole Ice Ball (F Circle) --> Level 1:

  • - Very little startup and even smaller recovery makes it very spam friendly
  • - Low recovery means you are given a little bit of leeway to run up to opponent and catch them with Level 1, instead of only landing the confirm when directly next to opponent.
  • Many air to ground combos are able to Level 1 confirm off of this.
  • Shouldn't be removed; should have significantly increased startup so that it cannot be spammed and cannot easily be used as a combo linker, but can still be used as a combo starter for its low recovery. That would make the KC okay.
  •  

* Dante's Square x3 -> Empty Cancel -> Level 1:

  • - Begins with an extremely quick jab that can punish on block very effectively, making it one of the easiest KC's to land.
  • - Goes against Dante's essence as a combo-heavy AP burst character: now he only needs to build up one AP Burst, then constantly try to land this confirm. Doing anything other than easy bread & butter 150-AP combos becomes unnecessary.
  • - Possible to Touch of Death with this combo by repeating the Square chain & empty cancel (video below)
  • - Should be removed entirely, but the Empty cancel should remain. Can be done by slightly increasing the startup of Level 1 Super.

 

Evil Cole's Fully charged Giga Punch (Neut Circle) into Level 1:

  • -One of the fastest moves in the game, plus 10 AP armor.
  • -Evll Cole specializes at creating space for himself to charge it with moves like Firebird strike, his Shockwave, and his  F Square, so charging it ins't a problem.
  • - Almost fully charged punch KC (causes crumple w/out E.Cole going through opponent) is fine because it requires E.Cole to stay in one place (risky). Other one that causes a buttdrop is too quick, however.
  • -Only way this would be fine is if it had long startup, but I don't think people expect or will respond well to a move they had to charge up having a slow startup.
  • -  L1 Super is extremely fast & medium cost (125 AP), so this L1 confirm should be removed entirely by adjusting recovery of Giga punch and/or startup of L1 Super. Adjustment would still allow for Giga punch to be combo starter.

 

 *Kratos Uncharged Down Circle (Air or Ground) --> Level 1 

  • - Fairly quick (especially air version), so not easily telegraphed to the opponent.
  • - Completely overshadows the charged version's KC. Players have no reason to use charged KC if this one exists.
  • - Blast cannot be countered.
  • - Ground version should be removed entirely so that players learn to find best situations for charged version's KC. Can be done by significantly increasing recovery. Air version can remain if it has significantly longer startup, otherwise remove it as well.
  •  

*Raiden F Square -> Level 1, Air F Circe -> Level 1, Counter -> Level 1, and any KC that involves Air Up Triangle -> Level 1:

  • - F Square is a very quick move that covers a lot of distance very quickly, not easily telegraphed to players. Same thing for Air F Circle, but even larger range. Also extremely quick.
  • - Counter has tons of active frames, meaning one moderately good read is enough to guarantee a KC. Most other counters in the game do not guarantee kills (Kratos' close counter, Dante, Heihachi)
  • - Down Grab can be used to set up Air Up Triangle -> Level 1 due to bounce.
  • - Triangle -> Square confirm completely invalidates charged Neut Triangle charged confirm. It's less risky than charged Neut Triangle so players will naturally use it more. Also invalidates the Triangle, Square, Triangle chain, which causes wall bounces and could create some unique combo opportunities.
  • - F Square KC and air F Circle KC don't need to be removed: they can stay if both moves gain a reasonable amount of startup (not too much; Raiden' supposed to be a fast character).
  • - Counter KC, Air F Triangle, and Neut Triangle -> Square absolutely have to go. Increase recovery frames on Counter slash and/or increase startup of Level 1 Super to prevent the KC while still giving it combo potential. For Air up triangle, adjust trajectory angle of opponent to be more vertical instead of horizontal so that he'll do an air tech at a higher height, out of range of Raiden's L1. And for Neut Triangle -> Square, increase recovery of final square so it can be followed up with square or triangle, but not a Super.
  • -Would force Raiden players to try to land Raiden's other million confirms, like Neutral Triangle off guard break, Air & Ground down triangle (slightly more startup needed for ground version), etc.
  •  

* Sackboy's Air Down Circle (Electric Panel) -> Level 1, his  Air F Triangle -> Level 1, and his Up Grab -> Level 1.

  • - SuperBot increased both the startup and the recovery for the Electric panel in the last patch. Increased startup to make it slightly more difficult for linking combos as soon as you pull it out, and to make the move better telegraphed to the player. Increased recovery to keep it from being a L1 KC as soon as you pull it out, while still being a combo starter. 
  • - However, air version can still be used to confirm, since the move's recovery is still cancelled upon landing. This leads to combos like Air F Triange -> Air Down Circle -> Level 1, which the last patch was trying to prevent.
  • - Electric panel remains on the Battlefield forever, unlike Evil Cole's oil spike and Sackboy's Cake mine, which disappears after 5 seconds (and is also another Sackboy KC that is completely fine).
  • - Ground version of Air F Triangle has enough recovery that it can be used to combo, but not to KC regularly (unfortunately, it is a "lag confirm" online, which should be addressed). However, air version's recovery is cancelled upon landing, very similar to Raiden's current Air F Circle Kill confirm. Makes ground version of attack seem useless in comparison.
  • - According to one of the game's designers, nobody should be able to combo into Level 1 off of a throw. This shows in their recent patches too: Both Evil Cole's Up Throw confirm and Raiden's Forward Throw confirm were removed. This one should be too.
  • 1st two should not be removed, just adjusted so that air version's recovery is not cancelled upon landing. That way, both air & ground versions of both moves can be used for combos, but not immediate KC's. Electric Panel should also be given a 5-sec timer like Sackboy's cake mine. Electric panel can't be a KC as soon as Sackboy uses it, but can be used as a Delayed KC if enemies land on it later. All of this would make these KC's balanced.
  • - Grab confirm should be removed altogether by increasing recovery frames of up grab. Still combo-potential, but no KC.

 

Spike's Air D Triangle -> Level 1

  • -Very little startup, so not easily telegraphed to opponents.
  • - Recovery is cancelled upon landing, allowing it to be short hop spammed until it lands
  • - Also works on airborne opponents as well as grounded opponents.
  • - Completely invalidates ground version since Air version of attack since air version is capable of cancelling recovery for a Kill confirm.
  • Should be removed entirely by making air version's recovery continue into ground version's, like Nariko's Disk (Up Circle). This would make Spike users find situations to land Spike's other L1 confirms like charged F Circle confirm, Neutral Triangle confirm, and Air charged F Square guardbreak confirm (this one needs adjusting; air Forward Square currently causes guard break even when it's not fully charged. Make it so it only causes guard break on full charge, and it's fine).

 

Sweet Tooth Air Square -> Level 1:

  • - Very quick startup, can be easily spammed in the air until it lands
  • - Attack & recovery is cancelled upon landing, also contributing to it being easily spammable.
  • - Requires ground opponent, but on air opponents causes flatten, which only contributes to ST's excellent oki game that allows him to use this confirm to catch people on wakeup roll.
  • - Doesn't need to be removed, only needs to have significant startup increase so it cannot be short hop spammed and is much much harder to land. This will negatively affect his combo game, which isn't a problem since Sweet Tooth was never designed to be a combo character.

 

 And obviously as an extension of this idea, all level 1 touches of death (like Dante's or Raiden's) should absolutely be removed. This is one thing that SuperBot has been against since the very beginning, which they made very clear at both their EVO 2012 panel and in their own Tumblr post: 

 

"Furthermore, setting the infinite avoidance limit at 100 AP basically ensures that it takes at least two clean hits to combo into super at the beginning of a match—or after performing a level 3 super. That’s because every level 1 super attack in the game costs at least 100 AP. Even if players were to discover 159 AP combos with every character in the game, it’s extremely difficult to cross the threshold from 99 AP to 100 AP without triggering AP burst. Dante is the biggest potential exception to this rule, which is why his level 1 super costs 150 AP."  

 

Simply put, TOD's can be removed by increasing Level 1 Super requirements of characters who have them up to 150 AP or by adjusting recovery on certain attacks to make certain grab resets that can lead to ToD's impossible. 

 

Sony Santa Monica, this topic of easy Kill Confirms and ToD's has always been a hot topic on this forum, ever since the Summer 2012 Beta. There have already been so many players who simply quit playing this game and/or stopped coming to the forum  because of how split the community has been on the topic. Given how small this community already is, we simply can't afford to lose more. So I sincerely hope you guys have a serious discussion about extremely easy KC's since this might be the final patch: that's all I ask.

 

  • I'm anti kill confirm myself. I'd rather see them severely cut back or removed entirely than given to everyone. There's a lot more skill involved in properly reading movement to land confirms, and I think you should only be able to guarantee a kill with a 2 or 3. So I'm ok with limited, difficult level 1 confirms and level 2 confirms in general.

    I also think the competitive standard should probably be 5 minute timed. Matches can drag on forever because of the super system, which makes them terribly boring to watch and that's the worst thing for a game that wants to break into the FGC. With timed, the pressure's always on and tournaments can run much more smoothly. And overtime is exciting.
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  • I would say a standard 3 minute timed is better to keep pressure on, but this isn't a mechanics issue.

    I think it will be impossible to remove KC's unless they break the combo system to pieces. I rather them just remove some from OP characters and throw the lower tiers a bone.
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  • Add a 1v1 mode, since GoW A got a 1v1 mode and people have been asking for this even before GoW A even came out.  :D

     

    Aslo, host migration is mandatory. Whenever the host leaves, the whole game is ruined. Please do this.

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  • It's been proven that this game, respectively, can be played competitively on all fronts of timed, stocked and kill limit.

    Before the games release, the MLG did a pre-tournament for it and it was, in my opinion, a fun take with it being FFA. NorCal Regionals displayed great 2v2, albeit our finals were in the morning and at the main stage, but I personally believe 2v2 is the best format competitively for this game.

    Overall:
    1v1: Stocked or Timed; Competitive: Yes
    2v2: Kill Limit or Timed; Competitive: Yes
    FFA: Timed only; Competitive: Maybe, if only to determine teams for future tournaments, otherwise it's just for fun.
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  • I don't think that tired is inherently better for competition. All modes are equally competitive. But what's also important is spectators, and the game is far more enjoyable to watch timed than stock.
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  • I can agree with that; I'll admit, even Level 2 KC's aren't 100% "fine" to me; they stand out to me as ridiculous more in 1v1 than in FFA. But I'd be willing to keep them in if it meant all or most L1 KC's were gone.

     

    And I agree that Timed should be the competitive standard for this game. Partly because watching stock matches that take forever can be a pain. But also, stock isn't a good fit for this game to me competitievly, because Stock seems designed for more defensive fighting systems (like games with a health bar, where survival is the objective). PSASBR's fighting system seems more offensive to me, where fighting and scoring is more of an objective than survival. Timed fits that much better, imo. Also, Overtime's a great mode.

     

    At least in timed, I have to weigh my options based on time (do I have enough time to go for a Level 3 Super? Or should I just try my luck and go for multiple L1's?). With stock, there's very little reason not to go for a Level 3. That's why I stopped playing Stock a long time ago. The matches basically came down to whoever could get their Level 3 first.

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  • I am a fan of the 3 stock being used for 1v1s as this allows for people to use strategies that would be impossible in timed (which would favour aggressive characters over the likes of Sackboy etc).

    The game should be balanced for 1v1 with FFA in the back of the Devs minds as 1v1 is the simplest to balance and is the only mode with a competitive side.  FFA is chaotic and near impossible to balance properly.  2v2 is difficult to balance as well (not as hard though) and doesn't have a competitive scene.

     

    Onto the big "issue", *sigh*. I have no problem with KCs as a principal and it is just how KCs were handled poorly in this game that is the reason for people's ill feelings for it.  If KCs were removed then characters like G.Cole who have great yolo level ones would sky rocket in tiers as they would only need a third of the AP other characters need.  Some level 1s are quite obviously not meant to be used raw, Dante's level 1 for instance is to slow and far to punishable to be used raw in a 1v1 and it is pretty stupid to use it raw in any mode really.  The top tiers already have the best raw supers mostly and KCs are impossible to remove really as things like the G.Cole level two setup from a hard knockdown (which really is a KC as it is inescapeable unless used on a platform).  Doing this would emphasis the difference between high and low tiers to a ridiculous degree.  Removing KCs would make a lot of characters level ones useless while making characters with good yolo supers god tier.  Matches at high level already take a while to finish and if you forced people to save up for their level 2s (don't tell me that high level players are gonna start landing supers raw apart from a select few because if they were don't you think that we would see more of it at high level play?  Top players will do anything to win so if using raw supers was viable at top level we would be seeing more than just the Coles do it) then matches could end up being 10 to 20 minutes long each.  Plenty of things alter the meta game drastically including the discovery of finding new tech, are we gonna limit people's creativity now? I fail to see how that is an arguement at all.  Nearly every character has a one button confirm, if you were to remove sweet tooth's air square as it was one of the KCs you listed (which aren't either the easiest or cheapest KCs, just the well known ones which really shows how bad an arguement this is) then at least for sweet tooth he would most often be forced to save up for a level 3 as his level 2 isn't great and his level one has no other KCs and so would be pretty hard to land.  Evil Cole would be affected greatly and for giga punch to KC he still needs to charge up this punch and it is pretty punishable on block and is IMO very overrated.  Raiden would hardly be affected by losing side square KC as he could just combo into triangle square or air side circle is better usually and he would still have the ridiculous juggles (which are the actual problems with him that make him high tier, you ever wonderred why you will rarely see a high level Raiden use this KC).  None of those are the worst KCs (not even just from a 1v1 perspective)  and they are all really easy to see coming most of the time.  The only thing I can understand people having a problem with is ToDs as (especially for some characters) these make them even more risky to make an error against than they already are (Raiden, E.Cole etc) however the ones that get complained about most are not the most dangerous or ones that even belong to the high tier characters, in fact the only ToD I have seen people complain about other than Dante's is Raiden and even then it just seems to be one guy who uses it as his whole arguement about Raiden being OP and says it in every thread about Raiden.  Dante's ToD is one of the only true ToDs (non-grab reset) and is perhaps the only one which suits what he is about (and contrary to what many seem to be saying the ToD can not work on multiple people at once as the furthest away opponent will crumple by the end of the pistols after square x3 which means that just like the other ToDs: Dante's only works on one opponent) Dante is high risk, high reward and this ToD must start with an extremely punishable on wiff jab and must land on a grounded opponent, the ToD is easy to avoid for characters who are in the air a lot or have good ranged attacks.  As I have said many times, Dante is perhaps the most overrated character in PSAS.  KCs and ToDs are not complained about by the high level players (who actually laugh at some of the complaints brought up here like Dante's EC, KC complaints etc) which just goes to show how this is really a knee jerk reaction and shouldn't be taken seriously.

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  • Lol no way there taking off KC's. Its honestly just apart of the game.
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  • I agree with you ICE The kill comfims have to be gone

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  • I think KCs should stay aslong as they arent too many for a single charcter like kat or raiden. Some character lvl1s need a KC to be a sucessful super competitivly like heihachis pulvarizer punch and sir dans magic arrow, both confirms into a lvl1 and both are terrible on their own. But some characters like raiden, doesnt need 3.5 ZILLION KC for his lvl1 to be successful it is quite good normally so why does he need it?

    I guess overall, the argument really isnt wheather thy should go or not, but who really needs KCs for their super to worth the cost or effort into setting one up.
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  • lol this thread is hilarious

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  • How about we focus on character changes rather than redoing the whole games mechanics.
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  • I don't know if this is the place, but I really want tthem to fix the whole Rage Quit dilemma, it really kills a lot of interesting matches. Make the chracters that isn't being controlled anymore explode like they lost a stock and will be out for the rest of the match (to prevent people from getting cheap AP off of them.) Speaking of explosions, can you fix the random bug where players will explode randomly for no reason and on top of that, sometimes when the person performing a level 1 super gets hit, they will still continue with the super a second afterward.

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  • Kill comfims competitive? no because are very easy to do, if they should be more hard to use, thats should be fine.

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  • I lol at the people saying kc's ruin the competitiveness, and don't even play competitive.
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  • The last time I play this game was in March for the unbalanced characters. 

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  • You don't even play the game? Then stop acting like you know how to balance the game.
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  • LOL^
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  • I don't think KCs can be removed without severely changing the properties of the KCing moves. It just happens the moves act so they can be chained into a super accordingly. I bet half of the KCs out there weren't even intentionally placed.

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  • I think it's perfectly possible to remove KC's by putting it a universal restriction for the frame at which you're allowed to use a Super.

     

    SuperBot already proved that this is possible in a previous patch when they said that characters couldn't use a Super until Frame 12 after landing during an air attack. So they could simply set the rule that characters aren't able to perform a Super until frame X after landing any attack, but not set this resctriction for combos. That way the only KCs that would need to be specifically adjusted would be the ones like Ratchet's suck cannon.

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  • IceColdKilla44 wrote:

    No disrespect to Pheracus or anyone else who considers themself a "top" Dante player, but again, we have different ideas of what a "top" Dante player is. I've seen Pheracus play and one thing I've noticed is that he's very reliant on the KC; it doesn't surprise me at all that he's defending it.

     

    I'm perfectly open to discuss why KC's are a terrible fit for this game, espeically now that there's a somewhat realistic chance of them being removed. Just not here. 

     

    Though when I say I want a "discussion", I sincerely mean a discussion. A few weeks ago, I had a lengthy debate with Vizionary, someone you guys consider a "top player", about KC's, and he ended up ignoring many of my points, insulting my skill, and giving me the asinine "Anything that's already in the game isn't OP" argument. If that's what I can expect from talking to "other" high level players then I won't even bother. 

     

    Also, please don't just assume that it's my opinion that needs to be reassessed, as if I'm wrong only because i'm not considered a "top" Dante player. I've had plenty of experience with him (he's my main) and I am familiar enough with his moveset to realize how much BS it is that he would be "trash" without EC. Your assumption that only "good" players have a right to balance characters is just plain wrong; I highly doubt the people at SSM balancing this game are the best players. Even Seth Killian lost on GameSpot Tournament TV, but he'll be the one in charge of balancing. What counts is that those people all have experience with the game. And so do I. So I honestly couldn't care less if you don't respect my opinions just becasue you have doubts about my skill or my ability to compete with "top level" players. Because that's not my problem.

     

    But like I said again and again, can we please move this KC discussion to another thread? I want Dante's other problems to be addressed here too.



    I'm bringing this discussion over from the Dante fall patch wishlist so that that thread is not derailed.  IceCold I have actually had respect for you for a while but I think on this topic you aren't actually listening to what myself and other, better, players have told you.  Pheracus doesn't actually call himself the top Dante as he doesn't care about titles and I brought him up as he has done perhaps the best in the competitive scene (and he has played since before EC so don't tell me he doesn't know how to use Dante without the EC) he is also one of the most reasonable people (as I said) in this community and knows a lot about balancing characters and knows a lot about Dante which is why I recommended you talk to him.  Saying he isn't a top Dante because he doesn't meet your expectations about what a "top Dante" should be like is BS and takes all of what Pheracus has learnt and throws it in the trash and is quite disrespectful.  You may also see that despite using the ToD Pheracus doesn't suddenly start winning everything and he still loses some of the lower tier characters.  So despite him using the ToD you may notice that he doesn't start having massive winstreaks and a lot of characters have advantageous match ups even with the EC.  Viz has some of the best technical understanding of this game and while he is of course human like the rest of us he tends to be on of the most logical people here.   If Viz "ignored" your points then it is likely that they were not viable and there are still a lot of things in the original thread where this started being discussed which you have ignored/not addressed.  You are discounting every high level player just because you don't want to hear people disagree with you and bring up things that you can't rationalise.  You say that you are familiar with his moveset and so realise he wouldn't be trash without EC but at high level 1v1 play without the EC he would be terrible and indeed trash tier.  I believe that the higher level players (of which I'm not included btw) should have say in what is done in the next balance patch as they have the best knowledge of this game and know what would work in most cases unlike the majority of this forum which is full of knee jerk reactions and poorly thought out changes.  I also have no doubt about your skill, I myself am nowhere near high level and just like to believe I have a very basic idea of high level play and the removal of KCs is not a good idea.

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  • please keep parries how they are
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  • Ima post a vid of my GC kill confirms & I would like you guys to duplicate them-_-
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  • Laybackkid wrote:
    Ima post a vid of my GC kill confirms & I would like you guys to duplicate them-_-

    I've been looking for that vid, if you don't post it then can you at least PM me it?

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  • Icecold can you empty cancel?

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